SL2-S

[lx1713]

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So if their approach is to be able to dial in a focus puller's style of focusing, it's like the picture styles without photoshopping. Fine tuning in the acceleration and decelerations of the focusing timeline isn't exceptionally different from the current AF operations of the SL. You may need to rehouse the existing lenses for finer focusing motors, add zoom servos, par-focal, etc but that's money to be made by Leica.

The 24-90 is a par focal zoom. That isn't an accidental by product of the design process. Par focal zooms are horribly expensive in the cinematic world.

Edited October 29, 2020 by lx1713

[Steven]

6 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Really? Panasonic release the S5 and some people think it won't be a variant of that, if it exists? It's fun to speculate but the reality is clear. If you want to know what a lite SL2 is then demo an S5.

Leica has a commercial relationship with Panasonic. That means CDAF. If that's not what you want then you're outta luck because that's what you're going to get. There are other companies who apparently make excellent PDAF alternatives if that's what you want. There's no need to stay with Leica or Panasonic and it was pretty clear even before the SL2 what the focusing was going to be like. There's also little point bitching about it. It isn't going to change. Cut your losses and move on. The Canon looks like a really nice camera with great lenses.

I would have thought that the lack of a fully articulated screen and some internal codecs would have made it pretty clear Leica doesn't give a rats ar** about vloggers and soccer dads video expectations. t's primarily a stills camera. But....Strap on an Atmos and one of Leica's cine lense and things are a bit different. There's another level of cinema video production above eye AF and handheld gimbals out there and Leica are a player because of those cine lenses. The SL2 plays really nicely if that's the playground your sandpit is in. Really though, Leica sells primarily to M users who's eyes aren't so good anymore. We can whinge about eye tracking but I suspect Leica know their main market better than we do. Their profit would indicate they do.

Leica is possibly the most profitable (relative to company size) camera company on the planet. Sony and Canon may have the tech but commercially, their camera divisions are struggling, relatively speaking. They'll plow on because they have other divisions to help out with tech sharing etc. Sigma will be fine. They share the tech from each new lens between L and FE mount. Takes very little to change a lens mount. And perhaps Canon R might follow. Sigma will keep making new lenses for L and FE mount because no matters who wins, they do. Panasonic supply Leica and still have the GH5. Also the S1H is Netflix certified. It's a small market so when you compare to Canon/Sony they look insignificant. But look at the serious end of the video market and Panasonic is fine. Saying Panasonic has no market share in video is like saying RED or Blackmagic have no market share...

Anyone who bought an SL2 for video AF or tracking AF bought the wrong camera. Not sure how as it was pretty obvious Leica don't do tracking AF well based on their arrangements with Panasonic. So if you're a vlogger or sports shooter it's not surprising you think the SL2 focus sucks (it does for you). But if you shoot primarily in SAF and stills then the AF is freaking fantastic. EV -6, anyone? My SL2 crushes my Son'y in low light SAF. Mind you I've only got the A7R3 and not IV.

Yes the eye AF, video AF and stills tracking AF is at the bottom of the pile. Yes it's really really good for SAF. Yes any new SL will be the same. Nothing new here.

What it probably will have is custom micro lenses. If you've wanted a top end 24MP sensor that plays nice with M glass you might be in luck.

But hey! Speculate on!!

Gordon

Hey Gordon, another great contribution. 
The only argument that didn’t seem pertinent to me is when you say that for pro level the sl2 is a solid option. I think that if you’re going to go manual lenses and big monitor, they are way better option than buying a great stills camera. I think what people want from a great stills camera if great occasional video, mainly for travelling. Just my opinion. 
 

what is SAF? 

and can you clarify what you mean by the sl2s will have it’s own micro lenses ? 

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[Steven]

5 hours ago, lx1713 said:

Well, think of it this way, Leica probably is talking to a different market from us. The people who use their Thalia, Summilux-C, Summicron-C, M 0.8 range of lenses is likely to have a different approach to focusing from say Canon's XF705 camcorders. And substantial portion of C500 users get a XF705 to fill a gap in their C500's capabilities.

Whether it's developing towards Canon or Sony's video AF, Leica may well be thinking how its automation will replace a focus puller. If the pandemic removes an entire work class in Hollywood what replaces that skillset? The professional focusing is on a different requirements list from what we perceive.

If anything Leica cannot really tackle a broader mass market as effectively as Canon, Nikon and Sony. They rely firstly on glass formulation to stand as the first choice to a smaller market who has an image quality problem to solve.

Don't forget the Canon and Sony AF algorithms are designed for news and broadcast. It's different from cinema.

So if a client doesn't really depend on a Canon or Sony AF algorithm to deliver a cinematic look, what then?

Solid point. 

[Boojay]

30 minutes ago, Steven said:

 

what is SAF? 

and can you clarify what you mean by the sl2s will have it’s own micro lenses ? 

Single autofocus

 

What makes a Leica SL/2 or CL/TL for that matter, play better with adapted Leica M glass.

Micro lenses are normally mounted on top of the light-gathering portion of pixels on the camera sensor to direct light onto the individual pixels. They can also be angled along the edges of a camera sensor in order to capture and redirect light back into the sensor's pixels reducing falloff on the edge of photographs.

 

[Slender]

Yes, finaly! Someone points out AF algorythms and performances better suited to ENG cameras, and nothing like cinematic focus pulls! Thank you! 🥰
I thought I'd won Stev'heart with my love declaration for MF in movies somewhere else, but hey :). He already has a Sony A7SIII

I definitevly believe the it will be a slightly cheaper SL2 body with 24mp cmos sensor, perhaps with an AA filter - better for videos -. Maybe with the price difference you can soak up the coast of these fancy cages from LockCircle....

A better tuning of micro lenses for M: I doubt it's a sound idea - can be conflicting towards M market share and maybe detrimental to SL lenses?

24mp in FF is such a sweet spot because it makes perfect room for 6K in FF or 4K in Super35 crop, and 6um large photosites. All with no pixel-bining/mix/interpolation.... however in practice it turns out the Leica SL2 pixel bining makes for sharper images than the sigma FP (check Eoshd website) who has a full-readout sensor.

It means less work for the Maestro III and buffer, so that may allow for 10/12bits video with more advanced H265 options. Raw is already possible certainly for the SL2, but is arguably rarely a good idea, since log and post denoise allows for 90% of adjustements in post, without coputer-crushingly-large-omg-i-need-10Tb-hard-drives-files. Sure if you dont control your lights, expose poorly and without white/dark balancing, then yeah Raw can save your bacon in post.

At this level of consideration, skip directly to a RED komodo or sony FX6... you are not looking out to the godly stills capacities of the SL2 anymore.

I would add even in the motion picture industry not every production wants/can shoot/edit raw. Even then you can throw in some 1080p 4.2.2 in a mix of 2.8K ARRIRAW and nobody notices, if your film is good
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1392190/technical

 

Time to go outside... but i need to de-clutter this studio config first 😅

PS: the 24-90 is not absolutely par-focal in my experience, but zooming during a take is not my jam so I dont bother.

 

 

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[Steven]

17 minutes ago, Slender said:

Yes, finaly! Someone points out AF algorythms and performances better suited to ENG cameras, and nothing like cinematic focus pulls! Thank you! 🥰
I thought I'd won Stev'heart with my love declaration for MF in movies somewhere else, but hey :). He already has a Sony A7SIII

I definitevly believe the it will be a slightly cheaper SL2 body with 24mp cmos sensor, perhaps with an AA filter - better for videos -. Maybe with the price difference you can soak up the coast of these fancy cages from LockCircle....

A better tuning of micro lenses for M: I doubt it's a sound idea - can be conflicting towards M market share and maybe detrimental to SL lenses?

24mp in FF is such a sweet spot because it makes perfect room for 6K in FF or 4K in Super35 crop, and 6um large photosites. All with no pixel-bining/mix/interpolation.... however in practice it turns out the Leica SL2 pixel bining makes for sharper images than the sigma FP (check Eoshd website) who has a full-readout sensor.

It means less work for the Maestro III and buffer, so that may allow for 10/12bits video with more advanced H265 options. Raw is already possible certainly for the SL2, but is arguably rarely a good idea, since log and post denoise allows for 90% of adjustements in post, without coputer-crushingly-large-omg-i-need-10Tb-hard-drives-files. Sure if you dont control your lights, expose poorly and without white/dark balancing, then yeah Raw can save your bacon in post.

At this level of consideration, skip directly to a RED komodo or sony FX6... you are not looking out to the godly stills capacities of the SL2 anymore.

I would add even in the motion picture industry not every production wants/can shoot/edit raw. Even then you can throw in some 1080p 4.2.2 in a mix of 2.8K ARRIRAW and nobody notices, if your film is good
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1392190/technical

 

Time to go outside... but i need to de-clutter this studio config first 😅

PS: the 24-90 is not absolutely par-focal in my experience, but zooming during a take is not my jam so I dont bother.

 

 

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

You did win my heart ! You're the one who convinced me. When I talk about the importance of AF in hybrid photo/video cameras, I make myself the devil's advocate here. Or if I shall put it this way, I am trying to be objective on the market and what people want. I comment on what I think Leica needs to do if they want to get more attention, not what they need to do to get MY intention, cause they already have my intention. 

I have an A7SIII because im a camera geek and I buy 90% of the cameras that come out. I also end up selling 90% of the cameras that I buy. But right now, it looks like I am fully transitioning to Leica. I shoot right now with an M10P and couple lenses, a Q2, and last time you and me spoke, you convinced me to buy the SL2 (I will get the 35 SL to begin with and the M adapter for some fun)..

By the way, that setup looks like you're ready to produce some sweet imagery with your SL2. I've loved your photo work, can we see you video work somewhere ? Would love to see some stuff you've shot on the SL2.... 

[BernardC]

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13 hours ago, Steven said:

If leica wants to seize a decent market share, they need to accept that (...)

Leica probably knows exactly what market share they want, and I would be surprised if their ideal share made them into a mainstream player. An important part of that strategy is not trying to be everything to everybody. There's an oft-reoccurring thread here in which people demand (demand!) that Leica release super-telephotos, the like of which only Nikon and Canon have ever been able to sell. You'll read fortellings of doom if Leica doesn't design/productise/manufacture/sell these lenses right away.

I'm sure it happens in every brand forum: "I absolutely need a feature that is offered by a different brand. My brand should drop everything and implement it right now!" There is no perfect camera.

[Steven]

10 minutes ago, BernardC said:

Leica probably knows exactly what market share they want, and I would be surprised if their ideal share made them into a mainstream player. An important part of that strategy is not trying to be everything to everybody. There's an oft-reoccurring thread here in which people demand (demand!) that Leica release super-telephotos, the like of which only Nikon and Canon have ever been able to sell. You'll read fortellings of doom if Leica doesn't design/productise/manufacture/sell these lenses right away.

I'm sure it happens in every brand forum: "I absolutely need a feature that is offered by a different brand. My brand should drop everything and implement it right now!" There is no perfect camera.

True, valid point. I like the feature rich sonys, but “I absolutely need the flabbergasting image quality and spectacular lenses of the SL2 😂 “

Edited October 29, 2020 by Steven

[lx1713]

2 hours ago, Slender said:

Yes, finaly! Someone points out AF algorythms and performances better suited to ENG cameras, and nothing like cinematic focus pulls! Thank you! 🥰
I thought I'd won Stev'heart with my love declaration for MF in movies somewhere else, but hey :). He already has a Sony A7SIII

I definitevly believe the it will be a slightly cheaper SL2 body with 24mp cmos sensor, perhaps with an AA filter - better for videos -. Maybe with the price difference you can soak up the coast of these fancy cages from LockCircle....

A better tuning of micro lenses for M: I doubt it's a sound idea - can be conflicting towards M market share and maybe detrimental to SL lenses?

24mp in FF is such a sweet spot because it makes perfect room for 6K in FF or 4K in Super35 crop, and 6um large photosites. All with no pixel-bining/mix/interpolation.... however in practice it turns out the Leica SL2 pixel bining makes for sharper images than the sigma FP (check Eoshd website) who has a full-readout sensor.

It means less work for the Maestro III and buffer, so that may allow for 10/12bits video with more advanced H265 options. Raw is already possible certainly for the SL2, but is arguably rarely a good idea, since log and post denoise allows for 90% of adjustements in post, without coputer-crushingly-large-omg-i-need-10Tb-hard-drives-files. Sure if you dont control your lights, expose poorly and without white/dark balancing, then yeah Raw can save your bacon in post.

At this level of consideration, skip directly to a RED komodo or sony FX6... you are not looking out to the godly stills capacities of the SL2 anymore.

I would add even in the motion picture industry not every production wants/can shoot/edit raw. Even then you can throw in some 1080p 4.2.2 in a mix of 2.8K ARRIRAW and nobody notices, if your film is good
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1392190/technical

 

Time to go outside... but i need to de-clutter this studio config first 😅

PS: the 24-90 is not absolutely par-focal in my experience, but zooming during a take is not my jam so I dont bother.

 

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Nice setup ☺️, I have made the same choices but went with a Sennheiser set of gear. A bit of limitations for wireless in my part of the world.

I don't zoom much during video capture, too. I have tested both my 24-90 for par focal starting at 90mm and they do nail it on the SL2 for stills but I don't shoot enough video to really say the par focal stays in focus.

Edited October 29, 2020 by lx1713

[Rick in CO]

So, over on the Leica Rumors website there is an article about the M2-S, for which the "S" stood for the addition of a self-timer lever?

Would be superfluous on an SL2, being in the software?  The meaning of the "S" on the SL2-S may be novel.

[Slender]

Nobody for "S"wivel Screen 😅

[paul.bridges.3388]

Sorry to be late to the story. Isn’t this most likely to be Leica equivalent of the LUMIX S1?

LUMIX S1R ~ Leica SL2

LUMIX S1 ~ Leica SL2-S

So, tweaked for video and stills.

for me, this is quite exciting. I already have the Q2 but crave a lower-light portrait partner for it. The SL2-S might be exactly that camera?

[caissa]

I look at it from a R camera perspective. In my eyes the SL2 reminds me of the R4. After the R4 came the more affordable R4s. Maybe the SL2-S is similar (less expensive, maybe with less resolution, or a slower top speed of only 10 FPS).

Just another guess.

Edited November 2, 2020 by caissa

[paul.bridges.3388]

22 minutes ago, caissa said:

I look at it from a R camera perspective. In my eyes the SL2 reminds me of the R4. After the R4 came the more affordable R4s. Maybe the SL2-S is similar (less expensive, maybe with less resolution, or a slower top speed of only 10 FPS).

Just another guess.

The S1 is less expensive than the S1R, I think?

[Steven]

I'm pretty convinced the SL2S will be the equivalent Lumix S5, but priced around 3.5K 

Do you guys think its coming in 2020? 

Edited November 2, 2020 by Steven

[hamey]

It's been very interesting reading about the SL2/s, I hope that history is not repeating itself once again.

I think I am one of the oldest on this forum (close to 72) and still remember the beautiful Leicaflex SL2 in the shop windows.

I would have loved to have bought one but owning and using the Leicaflex SL  decided not too, plus my Dad wouldn't give me the money.

With the Camera being so expensive Leica was loosing money on it, so they turned to Minolta, and the R3/XE-1 was introduced, hence the R system was born over the premature death of the Leicaflex reflex system. 

So is it going to happen again with all the speculation and rumors about the SL2/s on this forum,  is  it true about Leica looking at introducing a cheaper version of their SL2.

Are they once again looking at the land of the rising sun,  this time though it's with Panasonic, I still remember them as National Panasonic, I have made several trips to Japan and simply love the place.

As I have been told on several occasions that the SL system is not doing to well in the sales department,  is Leica looking at or to build a cheaper model in the likes of Panasonic (S5) 

Of course it will be branded MADE IN GERMANY, otherwise  the Leica aficionados will go ballistic.

I wonder if Leica will ever introduce  the SL3 built in Wetzlar,  they certainly never built the Leicaflex SL3,  as the cost become prohibitive, and remember at that time they never had another system in the likes of the  (S) system, can they afford to continue both the SL and the S  surely it must be a strain on their R&D, what does the future hold for one of them.

we are in for some interesting times indeed.

 

Note for CAISSA.   Check out the R3, The SL/2 is more like the R3 not the R4.

 

 

Edited November 3, 2020 by hamey

[nicci78]

15 hours ago, Steven said:

I'm pretty convinced the SL2S will be the equivalent Lumix S5, but priced around 3.5K 

Do you guys think its coming in 2020? 

I was told by resellers : SL2-S is exactly the same as SL2 with 24MP BSI sensor instead.
4,990€ VAT inc. possibly postponed to March 2021 due to second wave of CoVid in Europe. 
Mid November Leica will released Q2 Monochrom. Same as Q2 without bayer filtre array and black dot instead of red logo. Slightly more expensive. 
However Monochrom may be postponed too...

No CL2 in foreseeable future  

so wait and see. 

Edited November 3, 2020 by nicci78

[Steven]

19 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

I was told by resellers : SL2-S is exactly the same as SL2 with 24MP BSI sensor instead.
4,990€ VAT inc. possibly postponed to March 2021 due to second wave of CoVid in Europe. 
Mid November Leica will released Q2 Monochrom. Same as Q2 without bayer filtre array and black dot instead of red logo. Slightly more expensive. 
However Monochrom may be postponed too...

No CL2 in foreseeable future  

so wait and see. 

So you’d give up half of the resolution to save 1k? That’s sounds not reasonable. There would have to be something more ? Probably in the video specs ....

[Simone_DF]

Also you can easily find used SL2 for about 5k, so not much of a saving for people looking to jump into the system.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[caissa]

What did you expect. It is still built by manual labor, by specialists, living in europe. Not mass production like the S5.

Now finally people get what they want. A lot was written when/before the SL2 was announced, that 24 MP is enough and that people would prefer that. Really ??

But it is not small like the S5. I don't care, but maybe some users will prefer the size of the S5.

(I am not so sure if it is a good idea to split that niche market.)

Edited November 3, 2020 by caissa