SL2-S

[Steven]

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4 hours ago, AZN said:

Provision of an appropriate link would make the above statement sound a little less arrogant – yes?

An appropriate link to the q2 mono being released tomorrow, or to us discussing it extensively in this thread already ? 

[BernardC]

11 hours ago, sillbeers15 said:

I agree the M10R has a better sensor in DR especially in handling slight over exposure and less noisy than the SL2’s sensor since I own both. 
However it is unlikely for the M10R sensor to appear on the SL system unless both sensors are from the same design source. I say so as the SL system uses the Panasonic’s proprietary AF system adapting the sensor’s information. Both got to be compatible to function. 
Also on marketing the next SL with a 40M0Px over the current 47MPx isn’t going to fly with customers. It is different on creating a 24MPx version with better Low light capability and perhaps better AF since there can be faster AF calculation now that the same processor has less work to do on a lower pixel image process.

I guess there are two unanswered questions here:

1. Is the 40 MP sensor enough of an improvement over the 47MP sensor to justify putting it in the SL2?
2. Can Leica find a modern 24MP sensor that is compatible with M lenses?

We know from the S3 that the 40 MP sensor architecture is capable of producing high-quality video. We know from the M10R that it offers performance improvements over the 47 MP sensor. We know that it's a Leica-exclusive sensor, and that they would benefit from higher volumes.

The second question is also interesting. The Panasonic S5 and Sigma fp use BSI sensors, presumably from Sony Semi, and those don't work well with M lenses. That's not to say that this sensor can't be made to work, but modifications may be expensive. Would Leica make this investment for a low volume camera, when they already have an excellent 40 MP sensor? If they decide on 24 MP, would they choose the fp/S5 sensor, or would they look elsewhere? Can the original SL/M10 sensor be updated? Maybe the SL2-S won't be as M-friendly as the SL and SL2? What would be the selling point if they chose to go with the BSI sensor? Is it enough to be a bit cheaper/faster than the SL2?

 

I don't know the answers to any of these questions, of course. I find it intriguing that the 40 MP sensor is almost exactly the right res for 8K UHD (with 80 spare pixels on either side), but that could be a coincidence.

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[lx1713]

 

1 minute ago, BernardC said:

I guess there are two unanswered questions here:

1. Is the 40 MP sensor enough of an improvement over the 47MP sensor to justify putting it in the SL2?
2. Can Leica find a modern 24MP sensor that is compatible with M lenses?

We know from the S3 that the 40 MP sensor architecture is capable of producing high-quality video. We know from the M10R that it offers performance improvements over the 47 MP sensor. We know that it's a Leica-exclusive sensor, and that they would benefit from higher volumes.

The second question is also interesting. The Panasonic S5 and Sigma fp use BSI sensors, presumably from Sony Semi, and those don't work well with M lenses. That's not to say that this sensor can't be made to work, but modifications may be expensive. Would Leica make this investment for a low volume camera, when they already have an excellent 40 MP sensor? If they decide on 24 MP, would they choose the fp/S5 sensor, or would they look elsewhere? Can the original SL/M10 sensor be updated? Maybe the SL2-S won't be as M-friendly as the SL and SL2? What would be the selling point if they chose to go with the BSI sensor? Is it enough to be a bit cheaper/faster than the SL2?

 

I don't know the answers to any of these questions, of course. I find it intriguing that the 40 MP sensor is almost exactly the right res for 8K UHD (with 80 spare pixels on either side), but that could be a coincidence.

These are very good points.

[Steven]

Q2 mono just announced.  

Edited November 10, 2020 by Steven

[Steven]

Is it tomorrow’s announcement that came early or are we still getting something else tomorrow?

[Tom1234]

3 hours ago, Steven said:

Is it tomorrow’s announcement that came early or are we still getting something else tomorrow?

In Horror movies there used to always be "the distant early warning" something that happens ahead of time to forshadow latter events. It is not necessary but some people like it dramatically.  Yet with mystery stories, you have to give up a little of the mystery as you go along or there is no story progress and the audience falls asleep.  The "distant early warning" is a way to about half way give away some information to the audience.  Leica Rumors is using this technique. 

And as you know, some people just have to tell the secret…. even corporate heads have fumbled and given it out.  A secret is a higher pressure than, ridding on a private plane for three hours that has no lavatory.  Finally you can not move out of the seat or you will pee your pants.  The CEO of Leica and VP of Leica marketing have no doubt felt this, and have some favorite person they tell the secret to before all others.  

Me, I can't afford the private plane so I have never pee'd my pants, never not once.  

And yes, I bet we get the same we heard before and then some more. 

[BernardC]

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4 hours ago, Steven said:

Is it tomorrow’s announcement that came early or are we still getting something else tomorrow?

The rumour was that tomorrow's announcement would be for the Q2 Monochrom, so that's probably it. The SL2S is also rumoured, but without a specific date.

[Tom1234]

I was looking at the SL as a good used deal in an M mount mirrorless camera but then a rush of new cameras came out by Panasonic (S1, S5) and Nikon Z's with vastly increased usable ISO.  

I already have three ISO challenged M's - M8.2 (660 ISO) , M9(880 ISO), and M9M(1,200 ISO) but the CCD rendition makes up for it.  CMOS sensors giving flat duller file only have ISO (speed) to make up for it.  

Also, there is focusing:  My next M Mount camera will probably be decided by this product's varied body options:

https://leicarumors.com/2020/10/24/you-can-now-autofocus-leica-m-mount-lenses-on-nikon-z-mirrorless-cameras-with-the-new-techart-tzm-01-adapter.aspx/

I am astonished that Leica does not produce the same for its M series.  This shows the blindness or unwillingness to use the full technology but instead to play "product release games" that streach out to make the maximum number of new releases... finally users are forced to 3rd parties for satisfaction.  Hello Techart. So a third party has to get the ball rolling or no innovation?

 

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[sillbeers15]

2 hours ago, Tom1234 said:

I was looking at the SL as a good used deal in an M mount mirrorless camera but then a rush of new cameras came out by Panasonic (S1, S5) and Nikon Z's with vastly increased usable ISO.  

I already have three ISO challenged M's - M8.2 (660 ISO) , M9(880 ISO), and M9M(1,200 ISO) but the CCD rendition makes up for it.  CMOS sensors giving flat duller file only have ISO (speed) to make up for it.  

Also, there is focusing:  My next M Mount camera will probably be decided by this product's varied body options:

https://leicarumors.com/2020/10/24/you-can-now-autofocus-leica-m-mount-lenses-on-nikon-z-mirrorless-cameras-with-the-new-techart-tzm-01-adapter.aspx/

I am astonished that Leica does not produce the same for its M series.  This shows the blindness or unwillingness to use the full technology but instead to play "product release games" that streach out to make the maximum number of new releases... finally users are forced to 3rd parties for satisfaction.  Hello Techart. So a third party has to get the ball rolling or no innovation?

 

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Yeah. If I were Leica, I would produce a range of AF M to L adapters for M lenses that have varied focusing travel. Plus a majority of M lenses have short focal length. Few fast M lenses (Noctilux) should really benefit for adapted use on SL & SL2. Selling each adapter for $3-5k is easy money for Leica as compared to the cost of each Noctilux is acceptable for most owners. Leica, think about it! It may even help to sell more Noctilux and SL2!

[Simone_DF]

@Tom1234 I have that same adapter for Sony. It works great for what it is, but it's far from perfect. Basically lenses have to be set to infinity, and focus is fast and good in the center area. Move to the mid zone of the frame and it starts to be wonky, but still usable. It is not usable on the outer edges of the frame, the focus hunts like crazy (in that case I just switch to manual focusing). Also image quality suffers a bit with lenses with floating elements. There is a very long thread on Fred Miranda's forum.

TLDR for about 300€ is fantastic, you can nail eye-af with a 1.4 lens no problem, but it has many quirks.

The main reason Leica is not producing one is because the Techart needs phase detect, and because quality won't be up to Leica standards.

[Tom1234]

3 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

@Tom1234 I have that same adapter for Sony. It works great for what it is, but it's far from perfect. Basically lenses have to be set to infinity, and focus is fast and good in the center area. Move to the mid zone of the frame and it starts to be wonky, but still usable. It is not usable on the outer edges of the frame, the focus hunts like crazy (in that case I just switch to manual focusing). Also image quality suffers a bit with lenses with floating elements. There is a very long thread on Fred Miranda's forum.

TLDR for about 300€ is fantastic, you can nail eye-af with a 1.4 lens no problem, but it has many quirks.

The main reason Leica is not producing one is because the Techart needs phase detect, and because quality won't be up to Leica standards.

Thanks for the Heads UP on this adapter.  I really don't expect 3rd party product to be perfect but it could bring new life to old lenses.  The new lenses are so expensive as to be not considered.  

Leica should make something like this but I see as you mentioned it depends on the focus system used… possibly an attachment to the SL series?

[Steven]

I just walked out of the Leica headquarters in Paris to show them a lens I want to sell. 

They told me the SL2 S will be announced on December 10th. They confirmed the 24MP resolution count as well as a price tag around 4K. They also added that the camera will be heavily oriented towards videographers, and that it will have a very long list of available codecs to shoot in. 
They didn't know anything about the AF system, but they assume it will still be contrast based with similar improvements as the S5. 

 

[LocalHero1953]

I'm relieved - having recently got the SL2, I know I don't want this one.

[Ktsa5239]

It seems like Leica all around the world is better and more friendly than the one in Sydney Australia.... the guy doesn’t even want to talk to me even though I’ve already bought a m10 and three lenses from him. He always answers my questions with few words. And when I asked him about the SL2-S yesterday he’s just said “never heard of it” 

[Steven]

Just now, Ktsa5239 said:

It seems like Leica all around the world is better and more friendly than the one in Sydney Australia.... the guy doesn’t even want to talk to me even though I’ve already bought a m10 and three lenses from him. He always answers my questions with few words. And when I asked him about the SL2-S yesterday he’s just said “never heard of it” 

It takes a lot to break a Leica salesman. 
It took me a lot of time to make him lose his shell. 

[Aaron Daniel]

6 hours ago, Steven said:

I just walked out of the Leica headquarters in Paris to show them a lens I want to sell. 

They told me the SL2 S will be announced on December 10th. They confirmed the 24MP resolution count as well as a price tag around 4K. They also added that the camera will be heavily oriented towards videographers, and that it will have a very long list of available codecs to shoot in. 
They didn't know anything about the AF system, but they assume it will still be contrast based with similar improvements as the S5. 

 

Thanks so much for this info, Steven! Did you happen to receive any indication on any body or battery changes? I do believe it very unlikely, but I'm very interested to hear anything else that you think will be announced  If ProRes Raw is indeed available in this body, I would likely try to sell my SL2 as soon as I can before any further depreciation with the release of the SL2-S. That being said, the SL2 is my intro into the Leica universe, so do you have any input on whether or not the value of the SL2 will go down once the SL2-S is announced? I've just posted an ad 

[DaveV]

21 minutes ago, Steven said:

It takes a lot to break a Leica salesman. 
It took me a lot of time to make him lose his shell. 

I call bullshit.  If this guy has his head up his @$$ then I would take my business elsewhere!  No excuse to be treated in an impolite manner from any salesperson, in my opinion, as long as the respect is mutual.

[Steven]

1 minute ago, Aaron Daniel said:

Thanks so much for this info, Steven! Did you happen to receive any indication on any body or battery changes? I do believe it very unlikely, but I'm very interested to hear anything else that you think will be announced  If ProRes Raw is indeed available in this body, I would likely try to sell my SL2 as soon as I can before any further depreciation with the release of the SL2-S. That being said, the SL2 is my intro into the Leica universe, so do you have any input on whether or not the value of the SL2 will go down once the SL2-S is announced? I've just posted an ad 

I asked about the body and he said there will be no change whatsoever. 
 

take everything with a grain of salt though. I’m just repeating what I heard but no idea if this person was giving me real information or speculation. 
there was one thing though that was surprising in what he said which made me believe it might be true. 
 

he said the date of décembre 10 was already public. But there’s nothing public about this date. So maybe he screwed up and revealed something he wasn’t supposed to by mistake. But it’s weird that he would be so precise with a date if he didn’t hear something from someone who knows something lol 

[Steven]

3 minutes ago, DaveV said:

I call bullshit.  If this guy has his head up his @$$ then I would take my business elsewhere!  No excuse to be treated in an impolite manner from any salesperson, in my opinion, as long as the respect is mutual.

I don’t know, probably. There’s no excuse you’re right. 

but I was referring to this “iconic” salesperson at the Leica shop in paris who’s been around for ever. It’s very tough to break the ice with him cause he’s fed up of people coming to see the items and then make fun of the price. But when he starts realizing whether or not you’re a true Leica lover and not here just to challenge, he opens up and becomes the nicest most knowledgeable guy. 
don’t forget Leica is a cult, and you have to earn your place in a cult 😂 

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[DaveV]

46 minutes ago, Steven said:

I don’t know, probably. There’s no excuse you’re right. 

but I was referring to this “iconic” salesperson at the Leica shop in paris who’s been around for ever. It’s very tough to break the ice with him cause he’s fed up of people coming to see the items and then make fun of the price. But when he starts realizing whether or not you’re a true Leica lover and not here just to challenge, he opens up and becomes the nicest most knowledgeable guy. 
don’t forget Leica is a cult, and you have to earn your place in a cult 😂 

Agreed.  Leica is not for everyone, but I would say that if you have the means to pay for that last 10% that Leica lenses deliver, then like anything else the law of diminishing returns require you to pay the premium.   Many scoff at that and many are glad to have the very best at the premium.  All about perspective.

Here in NY, my experience with the Leica store has been nothing short of phenomenal.  In fact, Eli Kurkland (owner) was not only helpful when I was shopping for my SL2 system, but he gave me his mobile phone number, in case I had additional questions.  He earned my business and because of that, I spent $20K on the camera and lenses.  If I got a bad attitude, I would have gone home and ordered online,  through B&H.