SL2-S

[Steven]

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1 hour ago, tom.w.bn said:

Huge problem? Where? I spent hours on youtube and only found vloggers who have vlogging problems. Where are all the descriptions of real life problems in video?

At first I was going to make you an actual answer with a lot of proofs, but then I decided to stop wasting time on this. 

The AF of the SL2 is the worst there is on the market at this price point. That's a fact. Its not good for video if you rely on AF. I really wish they would improve it, and then I would sell all my Sony gear and add the SL system to my M and my Q and be all in the Leica ecosystem. I dream of it. All I need is a reliable AF.

[nicci78]

We should not drink to much Panasonic Kool-aid here. 

What we know ? DSLRs have awesome AF with excellent tracking. What do they use ? Phase detect. 

But one chief engineered at Panasonic has said years ago, that they can make contrast detect faster and more precised than phase detect. So now this very same engineer is dragging Panasonic to extinction, just for pride. Yes we can do it. But in 2020, S5’s AF seems OK, but still behind Canon and Sony phase detect AF

Everybody : Canon, Nikon, Sony, Ricoh/Pentax, Fujifilm, Olympus are using hybrid AF phase+contrast detect. And it is awesome. But Panasonic, Leica and Sigma just have to rely on fancy contrast detect : the infamous DFD. L-mount should just admit defeat and join the on sensor phase detect camp right now, before it is too late. 

Panasonic has enjoyed a close to 0% market share in full frame mirrorless in Japan since february 2019 to august 2020. September showed a surge to a mere 5% thanks to S5. Panasonic really has to change strategy in order to keep selling cameras in the future. I am really concern that if Panasonic close its imaging division, it will drive Leica out of the road with him. 

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[ynp]

2 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Panasonic has enjoyed a close to 0% market share in full frame mirrorless in Japan since february 2019 to august 2020. September showed a surge to a mere 5% thanks to S5. Panasonic really has to change strategy in order to keep selling cameras in the future. I am really concern that if Panasonic close its imaging division, it will drive Leica out of the road with him. 

I think that the Panasonic full frame cameras are not long enough present  on the marketplace to get a substantial market share. They lack the lenses and the Leica lenses are too expensive for a lot of potential customers. The majority of Nikon , Canon and Sony customers already have their lenses and can adapt their legacy glass with the adapters.  Panasonic is obviously planing a long term game and they will be bringing new products  in the future. I think that they are calculating  the risks and will not exit the market soon, even the noisy paid influencers on social media tell you otherwise. Too much of marketing on YouTube for my liking. . 

I agree that the AFc on the Panasonic and SL2 is not the best in the world. That’s why I still have a Sony with the 35mm and 85 mm. lenses. But for my work I do not NEED the eye focus on every shoot. The Sony is easy, even too easy for the portrait and nude work. I shoot looser and faster with my Sony and it limits me, I want to slow down when I shoot for myself. When I am asked to shoot people, I tend to pick up the Sony. For personal stuff I have different cameras. The M10r is the favorite camera of mine now. 
 

yevgeny

[navier]

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[BernardC]

As they say: the grass is always greener on the other side.

Sony should worry. Their sales are dropping rapidly, and they haven't innovated in quite a while. Sure, they now have an entry-level a6000-style body, but that's a low-margin product for consumers looking to replace their old a6000 (their APS lenses won't work, so it's a tough sell). Also, they have a history of dropping non-performing consumer products. Sure, they are "fast," but their flagship low-volume a9 isn't as fast as a 1Dx, and too expensive to sell to people who can't afford a 1Dx.

They used to have a megapixel advantage, but those customers have moved-on to medium-format mirrorless. What's left for them? They can try to get advantageous shelf space at Best Buy and Walmart, but I'm not convinced they will beat Canon at that game.

 

[Simone_DF]

16 hours ago, ynp said:

I think that the Panasonic full frame cameras are not long enough present  on the marketplace to get a substantial market share. They lack the lenses and the Leica lenses are too expensive for a lot of potential customers. The majority of Nikon , Canon and Sony customers already have their lenses and can adapt their legacy glass with the adapters. 

I disagree. The L alliance started with a very good selection of lenses from 3 manufacturers. Let’s remove Leica for a second for the reasons stated above, you still have Sigma and its wide range of lenses, and Panasonic within a small timeframe released all standard zoom workhorses and more. The only lenses that are missing are the small primes, for the rest you were covered from day one by Sigma. 
Nikon and Canon users could adapt their DSLR glass, but especially for Nikon the initial native lens lineup was miserable 

[nicci78]

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Don’t forget that every Sigma DG HSM and DG DN lenses are also available for Sony FE mount. So not an advantage at all...

Sigma DC DN are also available to Sony E mount and Canon EOS-M mount. 

[ynp]

24 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

I disagree. The L alliance started with a very good selection of lenses from 3 manufacturers. Let’s remove Leica for a second for the reasons stated above, you still have Sigma and its wide range of lenses, and Panasonic within a small timeframe released all standard zoom workhorses and more. The only lenses that are missing are the small primes, for the rest you were covered from day one by Sigma. 
Nikon and Canon users could adapt their DSLR glass, but especially for Nikon the initial native lens lineup was miserable 

Maybe you are right. It’s still a big outlay to change a system and get a totally new system like the Panasonic is. For many the cost is prohibitive. I share my studio with a pro and she is struggling with the upgrade into the mirrorless, the Canon in her case. The adapter helps her to use her legacy DSLR lenses. 

[lx1713]

: )

SL2s for Sinar, I hope it will be a technical camera with front and rear standards. Doubtful as it will be an engineering challenge except with S or PL lenses. Not enough flange space to do this.

or

SL2s for video capabilities, click less dials for aperture change and focusing via the dials. Hopefully ProRes RAW, global shutter and built in ND filter.

or

SL2s - simple. Just a sensor box to built out configurations. And possibly wireless remote controls like touch interfaces, etc via bluetooth and wifi. A FOTOS driven multi cam operation.

Something a professional might consider building on a single foundation for the long term.

[lx1713]

Regarding SL2 AF, I think its reasonably good for most things save very fast moving subjects in dim light. I just did a simple catalog shoot of models for about 900 images at f3.5 full length using face detection on the 90mm. I spotted maybe 5 shots that are may be rejected for not being brilliantly sharp and if the criteria is for enlargement beyond 1.5 meters.

It's okay for most things ☺️

[ynp]

5 minutes ago, lx1713 said:

SL2s for Sinar,

It’s a shame that Leica bought Sinar and did virtually nothing to integrate the Sinar technology into its Leica lines. They have the Sinar CaptureFlow  https://sinar.swiss/products/software/captureflow/ It is a bulletproof tethering solution and more. And Leica wants us to use the half baked tethering and unstable Fotos.  

[lx1713]

One can hope 

[lx1713]

I sent a long email to someone arguing for Sinar not to go into extinction. Although I hardly shoot products with technical cameras these days, a body designed like a back can have massive possibilities beyond what I used to do decades ago : )

Computational photography can be augmented with the right hardware design.

[lx1713]

Leica's SL is in a pretty unique position I feel

 

[ynp]

4 minutes ago, lx1713 said:

One can hope 

I am not sure that Leica

 

1 minute ago, lx1713 said:

I sent a long email to someone arguing for Sinar not to go into extinction. Although I hardly shoot products with technical cameras these days, a body designed like a back can have massive possibilities beyond what I used to do decades ago : )

Computational photography can be augmented with the right hardware design.

I am working on my old Sinar eMotion images right now. Used to have a Sinar M AF system. Miss it. 
I talked to Helga sometime ago and to a German guy who came here to Moscow for the M10-r introduction. No idea how Leica will react to our input. 
 

If Leica wants to be high end, it can with the Sinar legacy. 

[lx1713]

I was film Sinar C2 😆. When I went digital, I abandoned my Sinar but I never forgotten what a workhorse and productive one it was.

[lx1713]

Honestly, the SL2 has been just as much a workhorse and productive for me. Occasionally I wish it was 24 mp but the files are gorgeous

[Steven]

5 hours ago, lx1713 said:

Regarding SL2 AF, I think its reasonably good for most things save very fast moving subjects in dim light. I just did a simple catalog shoot of models for about 900 images at f3.5 full length using face detection on the 90mm. I spotted maybe 5 shots that are may be rejected for not being brilliantly sharp and if the criteria is for enlargement beyond 1.5 meters.

It's okay for most things ☺️

It’s not okay for video. If leica wants to seize a decent market share, they need to accept that people buying mirrored cameras at this price point want them to be hybrid. 

Edited October 28, 2020 by Steven

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Really? Panasonic release the S5 and some people think it won't be a variant of that, if it exists? It's fun to speculate but the reality is clear. If you want to know what a lite SL2 is then demo an S5.

Leica has a commercial relationship with Panasonic. That means CDAF. If that's not what you want then you're outta luck because that's what you're going to get. There are other companies who apparently make excellent PDAF alternatives if that's what you want. There's no need to stay with Leica or Panasonic and it was pretty clear even before the SL2 what the focusing was going to be like. There's also little point bitching about it. It isn't going to change. Cut your losses and move on. The Canon looks like a really nice camera with great lenses.

I would have thought that the lack of a fully articulated screen and some internal codecs would have made it pretty clear Leica doesn't give a rats ar** about vloggers and soccer dads video expectations. t's primarily a stills camera. But....Strap on an Atmos and one of Leica's cine lense and things are a bit different. There's another level of cinema video production above eye AF and handheld gimbals out there and Leica are a player because of those cine lenses. The SL2 plays really nicely if that's the playground your sandpit is in. Really though, Leica sells primarily to M users who's eyes aren't so good anymore. We can whinge about eye tracking but I suspect Leica know their main market better than we do. Their profit would indicate they do.

Leica is possibly the most profitable (relative to company size) camera company on the planet. Sony and Canon may have the tech but commercially, their camera divisions are struggling, relatively speaking. They'll plow on because they have other divisions to help out with tech sharing etc. Sigma will be fine. They share the tech from each new lens between L and FE mount. Takes very little to change a lens mount. And perhaps Canon R might follow. Sigma will keep making new lenses for L and FE mount because no matters who wins, they do. Panasonic supply Leica and still have the GH5. Also the S1H is Netflix certified. It's a small market so when you compare to Canon/Sony they look insignificant. But look at the serious end of the video market and Panasonic is fine. Saying Panasonic has no market share in video is like saying RED or Blackmagic have no market share...

Anyone who bought an SL2 for video AF or tracking AF bought the wrong camera. Not sure how as it was pretty obvious Leica don't do tracking AF well based on their arrangements with Panasonic. So if you're a vlogger or sports shooter it's not surprising you think the SL2 focus sucks (it does for you). But if you shoot primarily in SAF and stills then the AF is freaking fantastic. EV -6, anyone? My SL2 crushes my Son'y in low light SAF. Mind you I've only got the A7R3 and not IV.

Yes the eye AF, video AF and stills tracking AF is at the bottom of the pile. Yes it's really really good for SAF. Yes any new SL will be the same. Nothing new here.

What it probably will have is custom micro lenses. If you've wanted a top end 24MP sensor that plays nice with M glass you might be in luck.

But hey! Speculate on!!

Gordon

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Hallo,

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[lx1713]

2 hours ago, Steven said:

It’s not okay for video. If leica wants to seize a decent market share, they need to accept that people buying mirrored cameras at this price point want them to be hybrid. 

Well, think of it this way, Leica probably is talking to a different market from us. The people who use their Thalia, Summilux-C, Summicron-C, M 0.8 range of lenses is likely to have a different approach to focusing from say Canon's XF705 camcorders. And substantial portion of C500 users get a XF705 to fill a gap in their C500's capabilities.

Whether it's developing towards Canon or Sony's video AF, Leica may well be thinking how its automation will replace a focus puller. If the pandemic removes an entire work class in Hollywood what replaces that skillset? The professional focusing is on a different requirements list from what we perceive.

If anything Leica cannot really tackle a broader mass market as effectively as Canon, Nikon and Sony. They rely firstly on glass formulation to stand as the first choice to a smaller market who has an image quality problem to solve.

Don't forget the Canon and Sony AF algorithms are designed for news and broadcast. It's different from cinema.

So if a client doesn't really depend on a Canon or Sony AF algorithm to deliver a cinematic look, what then?

Edited October 29, 2020 by lx1713