Leica M11 - your next camera? {MERGED}

[Jeff S]

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4 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

It wouldn't surprise me to learn that the release of the 10-M preceding the R was a last minute decision due to parts availability or at least the worry of it given the growing concern around the pandemic at that time.  I certainly wouldn't expect this time around that the first version of an M11 will be a monochrom.  I'd certainly agree that if the rumors of 36MPx BSI are correct, the implication here is that the new camera is intended as the next step along the M10 path, not the M10-R/M one.  Ya never know, but I'd be shocked if we saw a new monochrom version anytime soon.

I've been on the list for an M11 since I bought the 10-R. That said, at the current pricing levels, it will have to be one helluva camera for me to follow through on that.

 

 

We’re told that the M10 Monochrom and M10-R started development at the same time, but dealing with color issues with the latter just took a bit more time.  The decision was made to not delay the Monochrom for simultaneous release.

Jeff

[Jeff S]

4 hours ago, Adam Bonn said:

There's a slight complication that some sensors have dual gain, which means two levels of amplification (Sony sensors IIRC), with a swap at iso800 or whatever, so it can sometimes pay to be mindful of the cut over point...

 

Leica, too, with the S3, M10 Monochrom and M10-R sharing the same dual gain sensor architecture.

Jeff

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[IkarusJohn]

2 hours ago, rramesh said:

The issue with mirrorless using M lenses is not the mount. Sony and 3rd parties have adapters for M lenses. Rather the thickness and type of cover glass and the positioning of the micro lenses makes a difference. The former can be easily adapted by the camera manufacturer for an M type camera. I am not sure if the latter is covered by patents.

The 6-bit coding, I am not sure. Maybe it may not be needed in future other than to code the EXIF. Voigtander, TT Artisans etc. are already changing their lens designs to be more appropriate for mirrorless cameras.

All true, all the more reason not to bother.

Actually, the problems with the smeary edges is a combination of register distance and size of the mount.  Leica deals with this using microlenses and thinner cover glass.  You get to the same issue - why bother making an M mount camera just so you can use Leica M lenses ... makes no sense.  The larger throat of the L mount (and Sony’s e-mount etc) avoids a headache they don’t need.

[rramesh]

7 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

All true, all the more reason not to bother.

Actually, the problems with the smeary edges is a combination of register distance and size of the mount.  Leica deals with this using microlenses and thinner cover glass.  You get to the same issue - why bother making an M mount camera just so you can use Leica M lenses ... makes no sense.  The larger throat of the L mount (and Sony’s e-mount etc) avoids a headache they don’t need.

Actually what I meant in my earlier post is this.

Sony can easily make an a7 designed for manual lenses like the M with a thinner cover glass and a new arrangement of micro lenses (if possible). A variant on an existing range would go a long way to satisfy users who want to use manual lenses. The release of cheaper lenses from TT Artisan, Voigtlander and the like proves that there is such a market.

Doing so will address the gap with the Nikon range which has a thinner cover glass (not enough though), but not the micro lenses.

Of course, if the user likes a rangefinder then there is not much choice but to buy a Leica.

[IkarusJohn]

I guess the question then is, why would Sony make a camera for other people's lenses when they make their own?

I wasn't aware that Sony makes an adapter for M lenses to mount on their E-mount cameras, though many others do..  I can't see why they would.  Others have made M mount cameras (I think the most successful were the Epson RD and an APS-C Sigma?), but they don't seem to have survived.  Any such Sony camera would, as you say, need a thinner cover glass (Kolari style) and micro lenses (presumably); it would also have a manual lens selection (if you need such a thing), it would be EVF based (can't see Sony developing a proper rangefinder).

Doesn't sound very attractive, but then some here enjoy using M lenses with the A7 series (I tried that, and it wasn't great).  LCT seems to enjoy his Kolari-mod Sony.  I can't see the point, really.

[SrMi]

7 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

I have no friends.

You will make a friend if you give away your M10-R :).

[SrMi]

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3 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Leica, too, with the S3, M10 Monochrom and M10-R sharing the same dual gain sensor architecture.

Jeff

The dual-gain DR jump is relatively small with Leica-s. It is large with Sony-s, where paying attention to ISO is more important (in  the context of dual-gain).

[lct]

5 hours ago, rramesh said:

Sony can easily make an a7 designed for manual lenses like the M with a thinner cover glass and a new arrangement of micro lenses (if possible).

I don't need special micro lenses on my modded Sonys. The "ultra thin" Kolari filter allows to use lenses that don't fit well on my M240 (Super-Angulon 21/3.4, CV 21/4, etc.). What Sony could not do is implementing 6-bit coding for patent reasons explained above. I don't need 6-bit coding either personally but i don't see why Sony would make a camera like that unless they enter a joint venture with Leica.

Edited April 22, 2021 by lct

[sinjun]

Agree, lack of microlenses does not seem to be a problem on my Kolari Sony A7S which does not show colour shifts on any of my lenses down to CV 15mm mark 1, to the extent that lack of 6 bit coding is not a problem. I have put this down to the large pixel pitch of the 12MP sensor, but that is only speculation. My hope would be that Cosina might produce a mirrorless M mount camera, perhaps under the Voigtländer or Zeiss brand.

Edited April 22, 2021 by sinjun

[lct]

2 minutes ago, sinjun said:

I have put this down to the large pixel pitch of the 12MP sensor, but that is only speculation.

The "ultra thin" Kolari filter works fine on my 42MP A7r2 too. Made me rediscover my dear old S-A 21/3.4. What a lens!

[sinjun]

11 minutes ago, lct said:

The "ultra thin" Kolari filter works fine on my 42MP A7r2 too. Made me rediscover my dear old S-A 21/3.4. What a lens!

So does your 42MP sensor show no colour shift at all? If so, it raises a question about the significance of microlenses in the equation.

[Tailwagger]

4 hours ago, SrMi said:

You will make a friend if you give away your M10-R :).

Can I be your friend? I need a backup.

[lct]

2 minutes ago, sinjun said:

So does your 42MP sensor show no colour shift at all?  If so, it raises a question about the significance of microlenses in the equation.

Slight cyan shifts from time to time but i don't need to correct them generally. I suspect micro lenses are useful to avoid very thin sensor stacks (Kolari's 0.2mm) but i have no idea really and we are far from the M11 here, sorry folks.

[Tailwagger]

54 minutes ago, lct said:

 What Sony could not do is implementing 6-bit coding for patent reasons explained above. 

I've frankly wondered for a while now, why Leica persists in its use of optical encoding.  One can imagine an RFID tag and sensor system that could provide the identity for any lens they've ever made (via retrofit) along with all the necessary correction info, suitably encoded against use by other platforms should they wish.  They could potentially support both methods. Just replace one dot with a black or white chip and newly minted lenses would continue to work with older cameras. Continuing to rely on a mere sixty-four unique identities seems rather imprecise for a company that prides itself on precision.

[T25UFO]

12 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

I have no friends.

We are all your friends - we are just not unsuspecting!

[bags27]

6 hours ago, SrMi said:

You will make a friend if you give away your M10-R :).

He doesn't exactly give them away, but the price is quite fair....

And don't believe him: he's got friends.

[Datsch]

Well I have read all 14 pages of this so far and no-one seems to be concerned about addressing the elephants in the room -- 0.7m MFD and focus miscalibration.

80% of my photos are not on M because they are in the 0.01 to 0.7m range -- and I'm not alone, as many people like to take pictures of food, flowers, watches, babies, hands, jewelry, face closeups, phones, cameras, etc etc all of which appear to be invisible to Leica's M department.

So the M11 simply needs a helicoid in the mount so that any lens can be focuses closer. Simple. Not a macro adapter, but something that gives say 0.45cm MFD on 50mm lens for example. The same as every normal SLR lens made since 1950 ...

My second point is that having to send out of the country for 2 months for a focus recalibration is bonkers. It must be possible to rejig the RF so that a couple of allen keys and liveview with a test chart and you can calibrate it yourself. Of course there is a small art to it, but for example people have been intonating their own guitars for decades, it's no big deal. If you want full service then by all means send to Germany. And charge us $200 for the allen keys, of course ... but give us repairability!

 

[jaapv]

So it is. My local repairman does it while I wait or I do it myself. Why send it away?

As for Macro, there is a simple reason. Lenses would grow needlessly larger. This is a rangefinder camera, not an universalist like a SLR. 

[IkarusJohn]

EVF

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[lct]

The rumored Visoflex won't be as sluggish as the current ones hopefully.