Leica M11 - your next camera? {MERGED}

[jaapv]

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3 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

So do I. I'm on my second coffee.

Still waiting for mine...  

[Viv]

After mature reflection, no M11 for me.

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[pgk]

At some point, a sufficiently high ISO will allow us to take photographs in such dark conditions that we are unable to focus using the rangefinder ..... just sayin'🤪. Has anyone actually figured this limit out?

[Steven]

3 minutes ago, pgk said:

At some point, a sufficiently high ISO will allow us to take photographs in such dark conditions that we are unable to focus using the rangefinder ..... just sayin'🤪. Has anyone actually figured this limit out?

live view 

[Tailwagger]

3 hours ago, elmars said:

Thank You! Now I understand some things but others not. Why do older things awake suddenly, while newer need there time? The older radios from my father start playing immediately, but the DAB radio needs some seconds?

Presumably for the same reason that an M3 - M7 is 'instantly' on and an M8 - M10+ isn't.  

Despite both radios being transistor based***, the former is an analog device (ala M3 - M7) dealing with an analog signal while the latter is a computer (ala M8 - M10+) dealing with a digital one.  On top of the booting a computer takes time aspect, whenever there's a communication stream of 1s and 0s flying about, for the receiver to interpret them correctly, it has to sample the signal in sync with how the sender produced it.  I might guess how a DAB receiver goes about accomplishing this, but honestly don't know. Regardless, I'd wager that the syncing operation takes a non-trivial amount of time over and above booting the devices that are doing it. 

***(excluding tubes as Jaap noted... though to be fair, many tube devices have the moral equivalent of sleep mode in the form of a standby switch to allow for instant on)

 

[lct]

Fact is my M8.2's startup times (1 sec.) are significantly shorter than my 240's (2 sec. average) with any SD card. Would be interesting to know why Leica cannot replicate the M8 results given that more powerful "computers" like my A7r2 mod reach about 1 sec. in manual mode as well.

[LocalHero1953]

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My theory (OK, speculation, based on ignorance) is that CMOS sensors require significantly longer boot times than CCD sensors. Perhaps connected with liveview perhaps only being possible with the the former*. Something to do with CCD cameras having to deal at start-up with what is effectively a continuous video stream from the sensor, rather than just take a one off reading for a shot.

 

* Are there cameras with both CCD sensors and liveview?

Edited October 21, 2021 by LocalHero1953

[Edax]

Note the near instant startup and awakening of Nikon DSLR's with CMOS sensors. So it can be done.

[pgk]

48 minutes ago, Steven said:

live view 

So why use a Leica M, there are plenty of alternatives?

[cirke]

12 minutes ago, pgk said:

So why use a Leica M, there are plenty of alternatives?

No there is nothing similar

[Steven]

58 minutes ago, pgk said:

So why use a Leica M, there are plenty of alternatives?

form factor, build quality, colour science, lenses collection, fashion, and many more reasons. 

[strohscw]

I love my M10M and I would hate to waste my time on a "garbage" camera.

[pgk]

I use Leica M and Sony A7 Series cameras. Anyone who seriously thinks that the Sony (or any other system cameras) are 'garbage' is fooling nobody but themselves. There is a blindness amongst some who seem to think that the M is an all powerful camera to which nothing comes close. I have news for you. Much as I like and enjoy my M system, it has a fairly narrow range of applications and when I am working within these, for me it is then 'king'. But when I need anything else (incuding live view) the Sony cameras, despite their awful interface, are very versatile, extremely capable, have some state-of-the-art lenses and most importantly, produce extremely good imagery. I use my M series gear whenever I can, but I am not blind to its limitations, nor will I defend its optics as being the 'best', fine though they are.

This thread, if anything, suggsts a great deal of disatisfaction with current M cameras. I on the other hand am quite satisfied with my existing M cameras and lenses and have little, if any, desire to upgrade them until they become unreliable or fail. How is it possible to square disatisfaction and desire for something to be better when also saying that it is already the 'best'?

[Al Brown]

1 hour ago, pgk said:

So why use a Leica M, there are plenty of alternatives?

What else has black paint 😁?

[strohscw]

vor 22 Minuten schrieb pgk:

I use Leica M and Sony A7 Series cameras. Anyone who seriously thinks that the Sony (or any other system cameras) are 'garbage' is fooling nobody but themselves. There is a blindness amongst some who seem to think that the M is an all powerful camera to which nothing comes close. I have news for you. Much as I like and enjoy my M system, it has a fairly narrow range of applications and when I am working within these, for me it is then 'king'. But when I need anything else (incuding live view) the Sony cameras, despite their awful interface, are very versatile, extremely capable, have some state-of-the-art lenses and most importantly, produce extremely good imagery. I use my M series gear whenever I can, but I am not blind to its limitations, nor will I defend its optics as being the 'best', fine though they are.

This thread, if anything, suggsts a great deal of disatisfaction with current M cameras. I on the other hand am quite satisfied with my existing M cameras and lenses and have little, if any, desire to upgrade them until they become unreliable or fail. How is it possible to square disatisfaction and desire for something to be better when also saying that it is already the 'best'?

My comment was directed at Steven's statement that the M10-R is garbage.

Edited October 21, 2021 by strohscw

[cirke]

1 hour ago, pgk said:

I use Leica M and Sony A7 Series cameras. Anyone who seriously thinks that the Sony (or any other system cameras) are 'garbage' is fooling nobody but themselves.

I sold my Sony A7R3 because i am not a plane pilote ,  it is the most detestable camera i have ever owned 

[adan]

4 hours ago, pgk said:

At some point, a sufficiently high ISO will allow us to take photographs in such dark conditions that we are unable to focus using the rangefinder ..... just sayin'🤪. Has anyone actually figured this limit out?

Not there yet, for me.

But it does depend on other variables, such as the lighting contrast at the point of focus. I've learned to look for specular highlights to align on, especially "sparkles" in eyes. Or the cross-hatched chrome "grilles" of microphones. Or whatever else is available at the correct point.

And the lens in use - an f/2.8 lens is still going to require more scene brightness, even at ISO 10000, than an f/1.4 or f/0.95.

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[sarav]

On 10/20/2021 at 9:17 AM, Steven said:

I personally think that the M10R is garbage in low light. I can't stand using that camera at night. Of course, if you come from a useless Q2, or an M240, the M10 and M10R will feel like low light monsters, but the reality is that it's far from the minimum standard I expect in 2021. This is the reason why I just bought an M10M, although I don't especially like BW photography. 

mmmh...Well I'm shooting at night with summilux/noctilux lenses and TX-400 with very low technical limitation (pushing 1 or 2 stops). Artistic limitation is another story

I don't think M10R is garbage nor is an M9; if you need an M10M for low light photography because you feel limited, then I think you never find an optimal camera.

Try force yourself to shoot with "limited" low light performances and surely you'll improve your photograph skill and you'll apreciate more M10 and film-cameras.

[bags27]

Completely (or not) off thread. As someone who's returned to film (and therefore quite intrigued by Steven's description of the M11's IQ), just saw that records have once again become so popular that there's a vinyl shortage. Ditto with film and developer, of course. It's not a better or worse aesthetic, but it is a legitimately different and personal one. And maybe the M11 will attempt to carve out its niche that way. Fingers crossed on that.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/21/arts/music/vinyl-records-delays.html

Edited October 21, 2021 by bags27

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[adan]

5 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

* Are there cameras with both CCD sensors and liveview?

The PanaLeica Digilux 2 is one obvious example, but also most of the digicams of that era (Sony 828, 717, etc.).

And before that, a couple of decades of post-vidicon-tube CCD video cameras (Sony CCD-G5, 1983; RCA CCD-1, 1984)

https://www.sri.com/hoi/ccd-broadcast-camera/

There were - differences - in the CCDs intended for streaming to a viewfinder, however. Full-frame vs. frame-transfer vs. interline readout. The larger the sensors got, the harder it was to get smooth high-frame-rate streaming from CCD. Required CMOS to get adequate live-view (and soon thereafter, video capability) from APS or 24x36 sensors.

https://andor.oxinst.com/learning/view/article/ccd-sensor-architectures

Edited October 21, 2021 by adan