Leica M11 - your next camera? {MERGED}

[Al Brown]

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The solution to this is using shorter shutter speeds at higher ISO. I have no idea why so many people are reluctant to do it, especially on M10-R

 

 

Edited August 12, 2021 by Al Brown

[T25UFO]

3 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

The solution to this is using shorter shutter speeds at higher ISO. I have no idea why so many people are reluctant to do it.

 

 

I guess it depends on high ISO performance, but if you're using the M10 Mono then this is definitely the way to go.  My default setting is Auto ISO and a shutter speed no longer than 1/250th.  The ISO performance is so good, I never bother to check what ISO the camera sets.

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[Al Brown]

9 minutes ago, T25UFO said:

My default setting is Auto ISO and a shutter speed no longer than 1/250th.

Indeed. Many people I know are using similar settings workflow on their cameras, be it Leicas, compacts or DSLRs. The only decision one has to make here is how high your max AUTO ISO should be and you are good to go. The camera drops the shutter for low light beyond your setting automatically only when your highest ISO is not enough.

Edited August 12, 2021 by Al Brown

[lct]

2 hours ago, SrMi said:

What shutter speed and focal length did you use in your test?

Elmar-C 90/4 at 1/100s.

[jonoslack]

19 hours ago, lct said:

At 100% magnification?

40MP on the M10-R Absolutely - no problem at all - I have it set to 1/2f (ie shutter speed at twice focal length) really not an issue (even after 2 espressos and half a bottle of wine!)

[jonoslack]

2 hours ago, Al Brown said:

Indeed. Many people I know are using similar settings workflow on their cameras, be it Leicas, compacts or DSLRs. The only decision one has to make here is how high your max AUTO ISO should be and you are good to go. The camera drops the shutter for low light beyond your setting automatically only when your highest ISO is not enough.

Quite right

I really like the option in the M10 (all variants) where you can set the minimum shutter speed as a multiple of the focal length  (1x, 2x, 4x) - in good light 4x is sensible in poor light I use 2X with a top ISO of 10,000

Best

Jono

[jonoslack]

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1 hour ago, lct said:

Elmar-C 90/4 at 1/100s.

I think 1/100s is pushing your luck with 90mm and 42mp - but it really isn't necessary - I try always to make sure that the shutter speed is at least 2x and preferably 4x - but the high ISO is good enough for that (I guess it's just a different mindset).

best

Jono

[mmradman]

On 8/10/2021 at 2:58 PM, jonoslack said:

One thing I've learned having spent more than 10 years testing cameras for Leica is that more than a fraction of people are looking for everything the camera currently has! so I do think it's dangerous removing stuff that's there traditionally. As I remember Leica did remove the mechanical frameline switch from the M240 . . . . and there was a real furore, so they put it back - I don't use it much myself, but I do respect other people's feelings about it (and I don't suppose it's that expensive either)

However - adding stuff which will change the character of the camera (like IBIS) is dangerous as well (more so perhaps).

Personally - so far I think that Leica have made good decisions on their M camera range - it still has  character and it's still a real rangefinder camera.

Here's hoping they do the same for the M11

all the best

 

Why would IBIS change character of the M RF camera?

The way I see it small mirrorless full frame bodies exist and have ibis, for Leica it probably cost to develop especially if Japanese partners don’t have ready technology to share. If this thread is indication than typical M camera user may be happy without, plus we are already getting spiel how IBIS is spoiling the character even before rumoured specification before the lunch leaks into the open.  

As a user, the one who buys cameras, my view is that high Mp camera will benefit from IBIS and my purchase decision in 2021 has IBIS high on the list of criteria.

[jonoslack]

1 minute ago, mmradman said:

Why would IBIS change character of the M RF camera?

The way I see it small mirrorless full frame bodies exist and have ibis, for Leica it probably cost to develop especially if Japanese partners don’t have ready technology to share. If this thread is indication than typical M camera user may be happy without, plus we are already getting spiel how IBIS is spoiling the character even before rumoured specification before the lunch leaks into the open.  

As a user, the one who buys cameras, my view is that high Mp camera will benefit from IBIS and my purchase decision in 2021 has IBIS high on the list of criteria.

HI There 

If they could do it without making the camera fatter then I agree that it wouldn't change the character - but I'm pretty convinced about the problem - it's not about the body size it's about the difference from the front of the lens mount to the front of the sensor - which has to remain the same, so if you need 3mm for IBIS (no idea if that's right) then you'll need to make the sensor that much fatter and thus the front of the lens mount - so you either need to make the lens mount stick out further (which they've already done on the M10!) or else you need to make the camera fatter. . . . . thus changing it's character.

To be honest though, I really don't see the need for IBIS on an M anyway (which doesn't mean I don't think they should do it . . . other things like fatness being equal)

[jaapv]

4 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

HI There 

If they could do it without making the camera fatter then I agree that it wouldn't change the character - but I'm pretty convinced about the problem - it's not about the body size it's about the difference from the front of the lens mount to the front of the sensor - which has to remain the same, so if you need 3mm for IBIS (no idea if that's right) then you'll need to make the sensor that much fatter and thus the front of the lens mount - so you either need to make the lens mount stick out further (which they've already done on the M10!) or else you need to make the camera fatter. . . . . thus changing it's character.

To be honest though, I really don't see the need for IBIS on an M anyway (which doesn't mean I don't think they should do it . . . other things like fatness being equal)

Plus additional power demand, which would generate additional heat - and digital M cameras already have heat management stretched to the limit.

[stevieg]

23 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

40MP on the M10-R Absolutely - no problem at all - I have it set to 1/2f (ie shutter speed at twice focal length) really not an issue (even after 2 espressos and half a bottle of wine!)

Ah, Jono, that is probably the secret of your success! The coffee speeds you up, the wine calms you back down again to a beautiful neutrality and blur-free result!! The real difficulty is getting that balance of the two. 😉 

[lct]

1 hour ago, jonoslack said:

I think 1/100s is pushing your luck with 90mm and 42mp - but it really isn't necessary - I try always to make sure that the shutter speed is at least 2x and preferably 4x - but the high ISO is good enough for that (I guess it's just a different mindset).

best

Jono

Are you doing the same indoor?

[Herr Barnack]

16 hours ago, FrozenInTime said:

 

I'm getting good results from the M10M handheld that reveal even more detail in crops scaled up beyond 100% with Lightroom AI.

I read the lens stabilization on the Q2 does not function with shutters shorter than 1/60s ; I don't hear complains of poor handheld sharpness. 

I would imagine that IBIS similarly has a mechanical inertia and response bandwidth that would not remove as much shake as shutter speeds greater than say 1/1000s . Maybe the transition point is different from my guess ; it would be a interesting experiment to conduct on a SL2 ?

If that is the case, it's pretty much pointless. 

@jonoslack Do you know any information regarding the above?

[jonoslack]

3 hours ago, stevieg said:

Ah, Jono, that is probably the secret of your success! The coffee speeds you up, the wine calms you back down again to a beautiful neutrality and blur-free result!! The real difficulty is getting that balance of the two. 😉 

Hi There Stevieg

It also has the advantage that you are too pi$$ed to see whether there is any camera shake!

[elmars]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb jonoslack:

40MP on the M10-R Absolutely - no problem at all - I have it set to 1/2f (ie shutter speed at twice focal length) really not an issue (even after 2 espressos and half a bottle of wine!)

I had the M10R and the M10M for a longer period. I looked for motion blur, but never found it.

So I think motion blur caused by higher resolution is a myth.

But when I get my M11 in November (I placed a black order already) I will make a systematic comparison with my M10 side by side. 

[jonoslack]

2 hours ago, lct said:

Are you doing the same indoor?

Yes 2X - I mostly shoot with a pretty wide aperture and obviously that helps a bit. 

[jonoslack]

1 hour ago, Herr Barnack said:

If that is the case, it's pretty much pointless. 

@jonoslack Do you know any information regarding the above?

Hi There 

I'm afraid I don't know - I'll try and find out, but I'm not sure it's terribly relevant?

18 hours ago, FrozenInTime said:

 

I'm getting good results from the M10M handheld that reveal even more detail in crops scaled up beyond 100% with Lightroom AI.

I read the lens stabilization on the Q2 does not function with shutters shorter than 1/60s ; I don't hear complains of poor handheld sharpness. 

I would imagine that IBIS similarly has a mechanical inertia and response bandwidth that would not remove as much shake as shutter speeds greater than say 1/1000s . Maybe the transition point is different from my guess ; it would be a interesting experiment to conduct on a SL2 ?

 

[FrozenInTime]

16 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

Hi There 

I'm afraid I don't know - I'll try and find out, but I'm not sure it's terribly relevant?

 

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[mmradman]

6 hours ago, jaapv said:

Plus additional power demand, which would generate additional heat - and digital M cameras already have heat management stretched to the limit.

That is lame, yes IBIS consumes more energy than equal static sensor but we are not talking energy required  to boil the kettle. EVF is optional and it also use more energy than plain RF camera but it is not a reason not to offer it as an option.

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[jdlaing]

IBIS is a crutch on a rangefinder camera.