M-D article on Macfilos plus M11-D possibilities

[Datsch]

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So I wrote an article on the Leica M-D over on macfilos: https://www.macfilos.com/2023/01/27/leica-m-d-and-my-journey-into-nature-with-this-simplest-of-digital-camera/

It also looks at what an M11-D might look like.

I believe it vital for Leica that the -D concept should continue because it represents the ultimate embodiement of Das Wesentliche. The -D cameras are the true legends of M -- bold, crazy, supremely usable, nothing but the essentials. These cameras are not a throwback to film cameras, but an evolution of digital photography: distraction-free, screen-free, menu-free and skills-focused.

I am however worried that Leica are progressively diluting the M60 Edition concept.

The M-D added things to the M60, for example strap lugs, self timer, continuous mode, thumbwheel and exposure compensation.

Then the M10-D added things to the M-D such as Wifi, fotos and with that menus -- heresy! :-), EVF and faux film lever.

Continuing these twin trends of 'make it like a film camera' and 'keep up with the digital Joneses' would take the -D concept even further away from its roots. 

Will the M11-D see the M6's rewind locking 'R' lever repurposed as a RAW/JPG toggle? A battery shaped like a roll of film and printed in yellow and red Kodachrome colours? Double stroke the film lever and it tells your coffee machine back home to start warming up in time for your return? I sure hope not ... 🙂

I'm not a fan of the M10-D's film lever. I never used the lever as a thumbrest on my film cameras, and as a left eye shooter,  leaving it stuck out would only poke my right eye ... but I know people who have it do like it, even if 99% of digital M users get on just fine without it.

Hopefully of interest to those that:

Own or owned M60 @NigelG @bernstein1234 @LeicaM60 @jakontil @darylgo @Herr Barnack
 

Own or owned M-D

@a.noctilux @Aldrahn @bcapphoto@BITEMEDEA @brunner @Budfox @ClaudeB @CosmoM3 @danieldouloslee @Datsch @DaveNC @Dougg @dsetiono01 @Eastgreenlander @easy_action @enrico58 @Forumer @GLAUMAX @goldenbear @grahamc @Hero To Zero @hilm3 @horosu @hutchinson14 @jeffz @jmr237 @Joakim @Jobea @JonathanSi @kentishrev @Kim Dahl @kkong555 @kohei @Loop Skywalker @M2Pete @Mattias Burling @Maur @mcpallesen @mhanke @michaelknight00 @MLeica @mp58 @mr35mm @mrpanic @nickd @Oktober @Overgaard @Photon42 @pippy @plaidshirts @poli @qrede @ramarren @Renata @rhl-ferndale @Roberto Watson @roydonian @rvincent @SalvelinusAlpinus @sbaruche @Toluene @tomconte @vanellus @Wayne

Own or owned M10-D

@AndreasG @benqui @IkarusJohn @sinjun @scott kirkpatrick @wimdev @FreeWilliam @egrossman @poli@fabior @Matlock @fenykepesz @SiOnara @humerc @M9reno @hutchinson14 @gabbard@OfeyKalakar @Phil_P @graphlex

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Datsch

[jakontil]

I love the lever on m10D, kept my hotshoe free.. anyway i sold mine regrettably but i used to fund my MP so yeah… worthwhile 

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[ramarren]

45 minutes ago, Datsch said:

So I wrote an article on the Leica M-D over on macfilos: https://www.macfilos.com/2023/01/27/leica-m-d-and-my-journey-into-nature-with-this-simplest-of-digital-camera/

...

The M60 Edition was fine for a commemorative, special edition, collectible, but the lack of strap lugs and other semi-standard items of a normal use camera made it less appealing to me, never mind the price premium. 

The M-D 262 was just about perfect: a normal M film camera with a digital sensor. I should never have sold mine. Ah, foolishness.

The M10-D was nice, the additions were more then I was interested in. The faux wind lever or thumb rest was of no interest to me since I never use the wind lever on my film cameras as a thumb rest, the rest of the stuff was almost useful for niche purposes but, eh, other cameras do that stuff better. 

If they want my opinion, I'd go for an M11-D that was essentially the same as the M-D 262. Give it exactly the same features. And offer an M11-D Monochrom model as well. ...I doubt they'll even consider it. I suspect I'll stick with my M10-M, and maybe an M10-R at some point as complement, for a while to come.

G

[sinjun]

1 hour ago, Datsch said:

99% of digital M users get on just fine without it

But of those who get by just fine without a lever, many resort to aids of the thumbs-up sort which would not be necessary with a lever. There does seem to be an almost visceral objection to it amongst some, but my feeling is that the large majority of M10d owners find the lever useful, including those who were initially sceptical about it.

[Wayne]

I did own the M-D, but after a couple years of ruminating while the camera resided in the equipment drawer, finally made the decision to sell it on. I find myself being drawn, more and more, into the original Barnack configuration and size. I would lay out the cash for another M-D concept camera, but it would have to be something like a leica CL version of the M-D........No possibility of a rewind lever, faux or not, poking me in my damned eye.

Best,

[Herr Barnack]

Pardon me while I have a look around the house - it appears that some time ago, I purchased an M60 without knowledge of doing so.  It must have been during an incident of online sleep shopping... 😁

Edited January 27, 2023 by Herr Barnack

[fenykepesz]

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as a right handed person focusing with my right eye, i absolutely love and make use all the time of the faux film lever on my M10-D, i don't want to miss it if possible.

but for all the rest i agree with your article entirely, Datsch, as i like your focus on simplicity and the minimal number of features included in your proposed M11-D !

my only little addendum is about the camera clock : i want to be able to sync it accurately with an external reference time, via USB, wifi or whatever.  generating pictures with more than one device (speak mobile phone) which are not in sync with each other can be a real pain if your photo organizer software relies on the yyyymmdd-HHMMSS time stamps in your photos' metadata.  moreover i want to do this date/time syncing easily when changing time zones for example while traveling.

and i drop here my earlier suggestions for a focusing aid via some hybrid viewfinder - once i calibrated my M10-D the focusing process began to work again like a breeze...

[graphlex]

If an 11-D chose the Fotos route rather than the earlier versions’ autonomy, then Fotos would need to connect and run a whole lot faster.

[IkarusJohn]

I loved the M-60 concept, though I was never a fan of the M(240) cameras;  and copped a lot of flak and mockery for it.

I bought one, and a spare case (which had a combined strap), and used it.  In practice, I enjoyed the camera, and the fabulous stainless steel 35 Summilux ASPH.  It did what it said on the tin.  But, there were things which made it limited in use.  No threaded shutter button for cable release, and, despite having a CMOS sensor, no ablity to use an EVF for longer or more difficult lenses.  In the end, I sold it.  I liked its purity, but it was too limited.

I love my M10-D.  In its base form, it is as simple as the M Edition 60.  I was sceptical about the thumb-rest, but I use it all the time.  WiFi and EVF are optioins I use when I need to, but when I don’t the camera works as simply as the M60.

If Leica produces an M11 version, I hope they retain the option to use an EVF and the improve the WiFi connectability.  I’ll keep my M10-D, alomg with my M9 based Monochrom and my M-A.  They’re classics, and they work exactly as I like them to.

Edited January 27, 2023 by IkarusJohn

[fabior]

I had the m10d because, coming from a decades-long analogue past, I liked its essentiality and aesthetic aspect. I've never regretted the screen to see the previews. I appreciated the convenience of the fake winding lever. Never used the viewfinder. But then I sold it because I found it limiting not being able to set the non-coded lenses, not being able to balance the white, not being able to easily change the exposure mode and in particular the lack of the self-timer which to tell the truth is still present on my M3 and M9 M. If a camera is digital that it is without limitation. So now I have a BP M10R and I'm absolutely delighted with it...and it's very beautiful too.

[goldenbear]

8 hours ago, Datsch said:

So I wrote an article on the Leica M-D over on macfilos: https://www.macfilos.com/2023/01/27/leica-m-d-and-my-journey-into-nature-with-this-simplest-of-digital-camera/

It also looks at what an M11-D might look like.

I believe it vital for Leica that the -D concept should continue because it represents the ultimate embodiement of Das Wesentliche. The -D cameras are the true legends of M -- bold, crazy, supremely usable, nothing but the essentials. These cameras are not a throwback to film cameras, but an evolution of digital photography: distraction-free, screen-free, menu-free and skills-focused.

I am however worried that Leica are progressively diluting the M60 Edition concept.

The M-D added things to the M60, for example strap lugs, self timer, continuous mode, thumbwheel and exposure compensation.

Then the M10-D added things to the M-D such as Wifi, fotos and with that menus -- heresy! :-), EVF and faux film lever.

Continuing these twin trends of 'make it like a film camera' and 'keep up with the digital Joneses' would take the -D concept even further away from its roots. 

Will the M11-D see the M6's rewind locking 'R' lever repurposed as a RAW/JPG toggle? A battery shaped like a roll of film and printed in yellow and red Kodachrome colours? Double stroke the film lever and it tells your coffee machine back home to start warming up in time for your return? I sure hope not ... 🙂

I'm not a fan of the M10-D's film lever. I never used the lever as a thumbrest on my film cameras, and as a left eye shooter,  leaving it stuck out would only poke my right eye ... but I know people who have it do like it, even if 99% of digital M users get on just fine without it.

Hopefully of interest to those that:

Own or owned M60 @NigelG @bernstein1234 @LeicaM60 @jakontil @darylgo @Herr Barnack
 

Own or owned M-D

@a.noctilux @Aldrahn @bcapphoto@BITEMEDEA @brunner @Budfox @ClaudeB @CosmoM3 @danieldouloslee @Datsch @DaveNC @Dougg @dsetiono01 @Eastgreenlander @easy_action @enrico58 @Forumer @GLAUMAX @goldenbear @grahamc @Hero To Zero @hilm3 @horosu @hutchinson14 @jeffz @jmr237 @Joakim @Jobea @JonathanSi @kentishrev @Kim Dahl @kkong555 @kohei @Loop Skywalker @M2Pete @Mattias Burling @Maur @mcpallesen @mhanke @michaelknight00 @MLeica @mp58 @mr35mm @mrpanic @nickd @Oktober @Overgaard @Photon42 @pippy @plaidshirts @poli @qrede @ramarren @Renata @rhl-ferndale @Roberto Watson @roydonian @rvincent @SalvelinusAlpinus @sbaruche @Toluene @tomconte @vanellus @Wayne

Own or owned M10-D

@AndreasG @benqui @IkarusJohn @sinjun @scott kirkpatrick @wimdev @FreeWilliam @egrossman @poli@fabior @Matlock @fenykepesz @SiOnara @humerc @M9reno @hutchinson14 @gabbard@OfeyKalakar @Phil_P @graphlex

 

I love it. I literally just came here to link this article. Thanks for the write up. 

[pippy]

4 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

I loved the M-60 concept......but, there were things which made it limited in use...

I, too, loved the M-60 concept with just one reservation; the absence of strap-lugs...

Clearly the camera had been designed by a very talented stylist although one who was not himself, I suspect, a Photographer. Such a pity that so wonderful a concept was ruined completely (IMO) by overlooking / casting-aside such a small - yet absolutely essential - detail. The Leica III had them and that camera was introduced 90 years ago. On occasion I shoot with a wonderful 1930 Leica 1 but not being able to carry this supremely 'pure' camera around one's neck / shoulder without using a Never-Ready case is a right PITA. Why did the design team for the M-60 at Audi think that strap-lugs were unnecccessary? Simply because they ruined the 'Purity of the Design Concept'? The mind boggles.

Not that I was ever in the market for the camera when they were new but I did very seriously consider buying one particular example - complete with its unique-to-the-camera Summilux and all of the rest of the Box Candy - on the used market just a couple of years ago. I passed primarily because of this (what I consider to be a) fundamental flaw in its design. In retrospect, had I been a 'speculator', it was certainly a greatly-missed opportunity as nowadays the lens alone sells for far more than was the asking price for the whole shooting-match(!).

But I'm not a speculator and, for me at least, as a practical everyday shooting tool the M-D Typ-262 is absolutely unsurpassed to this day. In terms of camera-body controls it has only the essentials of ISO & Shutter Speed. In-Camera TTL metering (as well as a self-timer feature) has been 'standard practice' on '35mm cameras' for some 60 years and have been (for me) useful to put it mildly.

Just to touch on the noteworthy work (and very enjoyable story related in the link in the OP) which Datsch has undertaken here I find it quite surprising and impressive that there are some 64 (if my sums are OK) MD 262 owners (past/present) who are/have been active in the Forum. Considering the tiny (relatively speaking) production of these cameras made that figure represents a small yet significant proportion of the total cameras extant (as far as we know).

Philip.

Edited January 27, 2023 by pippy

[Datsch]

@fenykepesz @goldenbear @pippy Thanks for your kind words on my article.

I wanted to read something about the emotional, haptic and artistic aspects of taking a picture with an M or M-D but only found articles about specs and options and menus etc so I wrote something myself ...

[Datsch]

@fenykepesz

 

I was thinking about having a diagnostic cable for doing service-functions like: Time setting; Time syncing (which I now know about thanks to you); Shutter open for cleaning; Filename protocol changing; Total Shutter Count; perhaps error codes as well (this is based on the M11 after all 😉 )

 

@pippy I was looking at those M60s too ... and seeing if a wrist strap on the tripod thread was really as impractical as I used to think.

 

At least the other designer M by Mark Newson had lugs:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

[pippy]

2 hours ago, Datsch said:

...I was looking at those M60s too ... and seeing if a wrist strap on the tripod thread was really as impractical as I used to think...

As it happens I have used a wrist-strap in such a fashion with my Leica 1 but for my way of shooting there were two things which made the experience slightly awkward.

The first is that, unusually (as it would seem!), when carrying a camera one-handed I hold it in my left hand. The tripod bush of a Leica 1 is situated at the opposite end of the baseplate which means that the strap had to be far longer than I would have preffered and I found that the contraption was not too comfortable in use when my right hand came up to cradle the camera when shooting. The second was that the means by which the strap was affixed to the camera made it impossible to place the camera down on its baseplate and having an un-capped lens pointing skywards could eventually lead to problems with the shutter curtains.

Minor annoyances, perhaps, yet annoyances they were. In the end I resorted to chopping the whole of the front part (top-cover and nose-section) off an early FED-1 case(*) and, despite the added thickness this gives to the camera, it's the best arrangement I've yet found. One advantage about using such a 'modified' case is that I can use my 35mm f2.8 Jupiter-12 on the camera. Genuine 'period correct' Leica cases with a sufficiently long-nose to accommodate the J-12 are not too plentiful and, anyway, to carve-up such a case would be wanton vandalism.

Philip.

* The FED-1 is a copy of the Leica II therefore these cases do not have the cutaway for the slow-speed dial which came into use with the Leica III

Edited January 28, 2023 by pippy

[fenykepesz]

what if this M11-D topic is moved out from here or linked over to the "Leica M11" group ?  just to further raise awareness about the ideas expressed here and make a stronger case for the concepts discussed here ?  that of course assumes that Leica lends an ear or two and listens to opinions expressed in this forum...

i am really keen to see an M11-D and actually intend to purchase one once it comes to the market - in any case, i had myself put on a waiting list for the new hypothetical m11d at the local Leica dealer, and lead the crowd at the top of that list...

 

[pippy]

4 hours ago, fenykepesz said:

what if this M11-D topic is moved out from here or linked over to the "Leica M11" group ?...

Not having any interest in the M11 my own (admittedly completely self-centred) view would be that any talk about such a prospect would become so deeply mired under all the existing crap concerning the M11 that an M11-D proposal would always be destined to become invisible.

It would be illuminating to know roughly how many current M11 owners have, themselves, previously fully embraced the M-D Typ-262 or M10-D cameras.

Philip.

[fenykepesz]

vor 22 Minuten schrieb pippy:

Not having any interest in the M11 my own (admittedly completely self-centred) view would be that any talk about such a prospect would become so deeply mired under all the existing crap concerning the M11 that an M11-D proposal would always be destined to become invisible.

i agree, Philip, you are right, our case would drown in the muddy 'crap'...

Edited January 29, 2023 by fenykepesz

[pippy]

2 minutes ago, fenykepesz said:

i agree, Philip, you are right, our case would drown in the muddy 'crap'...

With sadness I would have to agree.

Philip.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[plaidshirts]

On 1/27/2023 at 6:11 AM, Datsch said:

So I wrote an article on the Leica M-D over on macfilos: https://www.macfilos.com/2023/01/27/leica-m-d-and-my-journey-into-nature-with-this-simplest-of-digital-camera/

It also looks at what an M11-D might look like.

I believe it vital for Leica that the -D concept should continue because it represents the ultimate embodiement of Das Wesentliche. The -D cameras are the true legends of M -- bold, crazy, supremely usable, nothing but the essentials. These cameras are not a throwback to film cameras, but an evolution of digital photography: distraction-free, screen-free, menu-free and skills-focused.

I am however worried that Leica are progressively diluting the M60 Edition concept.

The M-D added things to the M60, for example strap lugs, self timer, continuous mode, thumbwheel and exposure compensation.

Then the M10-D added things to the M-D such as Wifi, fotos and with that menus -- heresy! :-), EVF and faux film lever.

Continuing these twin trends of 'make it like a film camera' and 'keep up with the digital Joneses' would take the -D concept even further away from its roots. 

Will the M11-D see the M6's rewind locking 'R' lever repurposed as a RAW/JPG toggle? A battery shaped like a roll of film and printed in yellow and red Kodachrome colours? Double stroke the film lever and it tells your coffee machine back home to start warming up in time for your return? I sure hope not ... 🙂

I'm not a fan of the M10-D's film lever. I never used the lever as a thumbrest on my film cameras, and as a left eye shooter,  leaving it stuck out would only poke my right eye ... but I know people who have it do like it, even if 99% of digital M users get on just fine without it.

Hopefully of interest to those that:

Own or owned M60 @NigelG @bernstein1234 @LeicaM60 @jakontil @darylgo @Herr Barnack
 

Own or owned M-D

@a.noctilux @Aldrahn @bcapphoto@BITEMEDEA @brunner @Budfox @ClaudeB @CosmoM3 @danieldouloslee @Datsch @DaveNC @Dougg @dsetiono01 @Eastgreenlander @easy_action @enrico58 @Forumer @GLAUMAX @goldenbear @grahamc @Hero To Zero @hilm3 @horosu @hutchinson14 @jeffz @jmr237 @Joakim @Jobea @JonathanSi @kentishrev @Kim Dahl @kkong555 @kohei @Loop Skywalker @M2Pete @Mattias Burling @Maur @mcpallesen @mhanke @michaelknight00 @MLeica @mp58 @mr35mm @mrpanic @nickd @Oktober @Overgaard @Photon42 @pippy @plaidshirts @poli @qrede @ramarren @Renata @rhl-ferndale @Roberto Watson @roydonian @rvincent @SalvelinusAlpinus @sbaruche @Toluene @tomconte @vanellus @Wayne

Own or owned M10-D

@AndreasG @benqui @IkarusJohn @sinjun @scott kirkpatrick @wimdev @FreeWilliam @egrossman @poli@fabior @Matlock @fenykepesz @SiOnara @humerc @M9reno @hutchinson14 @gabbard@OfeyKalakar @Phil_P @graphlex

 

Lovely article @Datsch, the M-D is the perfect digital M for me. 

- a proud -Der