My new M11 is bricked... Leica Spain

[charlesphoto99]

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18 minutes ago, Wonzo said:

Can you please explain this to me. I've never before heard any bells or whistles from my various Ms ... did I miss something ?

The whole live view/evf thing mostly. 

[Chimichurri]

4 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

The whole live view/evf thing mostly. 

How did anyone manage to take photos before EVF’s? Or IBIS

This 60MP thing adds more problems than it solves IMO. 40MP is ideal. 

You add more megapixels and more super sharp APO perfection and what do you think will happen when you put it into a rangefinder? You’ll see the shake from your heartbeat. So now you have more problems that didn’t need to be there. 

24MP? Yea okay. Agreed. Gotta move on. But higher than 40? Unnecessary IMO in a rangefinder. 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Chimichurri

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[charlesphoto99]

15 minutes ago, Chimichurri said:

Hopefully an EVF too. It’s better than a rangefinder anyway. And an autofocus adapter. And then it’ll be a Fuji. I mean. It’ll be amazing. 

Lets not stop there - finally M users will be able to get what they've always (not) been clamoring for - their very own 24-70 and 70-210 zoom lenses! The M-SL will be able to do EVERYTHING! Just none of it as good as the original intent of the M - manual adjust of focus, aperture and shutter speeds. 

[lct]

4 minutes ago, Chimichurri said:

Hopefully an EVF too. It’s better than a rangefinder anyway. And an autofocus adapter. And then it’ll be a Fuji. I mean. It’ll be amazing. 

Fuji don't make rangefinders anymore but it used to in the film days with the "Texas Leica". This said, why opposing RF to EVF? What you say could be true for an EVF-M possibly but the M12 is expected to be a rangefinder with an electronic Visoflex, the same way an the M11 currently. A global shutter could make some room for IBIS i guess but i'm no techie. Now autofocus adapters work fine with M lenses actually. I don't use mine very often with my A7r2 mod but it can be handy. Why not a Leica AF adapter with the EVF-M? You should patent that nice idea .

[Chimichurri]

1 minute ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Lets not stop there - finally M users will be able to get what they've always (not) been clamoring for - their very own 24-70 and 70-210 zoom lenses! The M-SL will be able to do EVERYTHING! Just none of it as good as the original intent of the M - manual adjust of focus, aperture and shutter speeds. 

Hey! Now that’s an idea. Plus a grip and a tilt screen? Now we’re talking.

meet The Leica M12

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[Chimichurri]

4 minutes ago, lct said:

Fuji don't make rangefinders anymore but it used to in the film days with the "Texas Leica". This said, why opposing RF to EVF? What you say could be true for an EVF-M possibly but the M12 is expected to be a rangefinder with an electronic Visoflex, the same way a the M11 currently. A global shutter could make some room for IBIS i guess but i'm no techie. Now autofocus adapters work fine with M lenses actually. I don't use mine very often with my A7r2 mod but it can be handy. Why not a Leica AF adapter with the EVF-M? You should patent that nice idea .

Once you get into your 70s is better to just get into the Leica SL. It’ll solve all your problems. 

 

[lct]

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Just now, Chimichurri said:

Once you get into your 70s is better to just get into the Leica SL. It’ll solve all your problems. 

Too big for my taste, i have a modded Sony for that. The EVF-M, it it ever comes, would be dedicated to M lenses only. 

[pegelli]

12 minutes ago, Chimichurri said:

Hey! Now that’s an idea. Plus a grip and a tilt screen? Now we’re talking.

meet The Leica M12

Nah, I think the M12 will look more like a SL2, the only different features will be an M-mount (AF moves the mount) and a tiltable LCD screen 😇

Only problem is that FLE lenses will suck on that camera when using AF 😜

[hdmesa]

12 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

Wish I could say the same, but I sadly I can't.  It's important to note that there are dozens of variables involved, but likely a key differentiator in my case is that I shoot in LV 95% of the time and have all the way back to the 240.  Now that LV is essentially the standard, others are perhaps experiencing these things more often.  Dunno...

Gotcha. I will add the caveat that the M10 variants I had (P/M/R) would all lockup with a Sony Tough card. But with regular speed Sandisk, I didn’t get a lockup. Maybe I didn’t stay in live view enough like you did, though. My guess would be something heat-related if you used live view 100% of the time. These bodies are so small, so crammed full of stuff, and very tightly sealed even without true weather sealing — nowhere for the heat to go.

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, Chimichurri said:

I’ve had a problem that was a faulty SD card. Other than that nothing in a year. 

 

It all changed when they went for sensor metering. And I agree with you that it should be instant on. Waking up my BP 10R takes a second. 

 

This is what annoyed my most about the M11. The M is getting way too complicated all to lure the mirrorless people.

M’s shouldn’t have any of that. They should be very simple cameras. all these aides just make people lazy, stupid, and dependent on the camera to do the work for them. 

M’s were always about simplicity. And in that comes limitations. And in the limitations comes creativity. 

Start adding more bells and whistles and crutches and more aides and you’ll end up with yet another mirrorless camera. 

Because why stop at IBIS? An EVF would be amazing too. Why stop there? Give me auto focus too. That’ll make it even easier. 

Gonna fight you on the IBIS

For handheld shooting of stationary subjects, it’s one of most useful advances in digital photographic history. You essentially get about 5 stops of real world ISO advantage in low light, which is more than we will ever get with generational updates to the sensors (we’re near the theoretical limit for high ISO already). And for handheld at 60mp, the difference in sharpness at high magnification with IBIS versus without can be stunning, particularly with 50mm and longer lenses.

I’d rather they have added IBIS than live off-sensor metering. But problem is not added complication, it’s lack of room inside the M body. SL2 cameras are rock solid and lockup-free and they have IBIS, so there is no correlation with “complication” being an issue.

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, Chimichurri said:

Hopefully an EVF too. It’s better than a rangefinder anyway. And an autofocus adapter. And then it’ll be a Fuji. I mean. It’ll be amazing. 

An EVF is certainly less complicated than the M rangefinder  I never had to return a brand new SL camera because the EVF was not properly calibrated, but with the rangefinder on the M cameras, I have.

Edited November 16, 2022 by hdmesa

[Chimichurri]

1 hour ago, hdmesa said:

Gonna fight you on the IBIS

For handheld shooting of stationary subjects, it’s one of most useful advances in digital photographic history. You essentially get about 5 stops of real world ISO advantage in low light, which is more than we will ever get with generational updates to the sensors (we’re near the theoretical limit for high ISO already). And for handheld at 60mp, the difference in sharpness at high magnification with IBIS versus without can be stunning, particularly with 50mm and longer lenses.

I’d rather they have added IBIS than live off-sensor metering. But problem is not added complication, it’s lack of room inside the M body. SL2 cameras are rock solid and lockup-free and they have IBIS, so there is no correlation with “complication” being an issue.

They sort of created this problems by giving the M11 a 60MP sensor and super sharp lenses. They’re taking the simple rangefinder to where it didn’t need to go. 

40MP is a lot and doesn’t create this problem of IBIS. 
 

1 hour ago, hdmesa said:

EVF is certainly less complicated than the M rangefinder  I never had to return a brand new SL camera because the EVF was not properly calibrated, but with the rangefinder on the M cameras, I have.

Right. So get rid of the M and just make another mirrorless camera. 🤷🏻‍♂️ what’s the point of having it?

You could have everything then. 100Mp. 10 axis IBIS. 9M dot EVF 240fps (just like real life!), super big battery. A grip. tilt screen (sony makes the best ones), auto focus (why bother manual focusing), eye tracking, animal tracking. A PASM dial. 

That would all make it so much easier. 

You could have a 60mm 1:1 Macro. And lct would be able to hand hold a rain drop on a flower at 1/2s. Amazing. The menu could be like 20 pages deep of features.

Edit raw files in camera too. Fuji can do it 🤷🏻‍♂️

Let’s throw more things at it. 

You can’t say let’s have IBIS and think that will be all of it. what about the Leica M13? What’s the new feature there. You already have the IBIS. So let’s keep going. 

At the end of this road there is no more M. there’s an M impostor. Another mirrorless camera that looks like a Leica M just for posers. 

Personally I think the M11 already went too far with this 60MP sensor that creates problems on a simple rangefinder (like the need for IBIS for instance). 

So one could say the M11 marks the beginning of the end for the Leica M rangefinder. We can already see it with people wanting more and more tech to be added to the M. what about this or that or the other.

So RIP.

The M already has the tech it needs. A meter and a good viewfinder that doesn’t flare and lets you see things clearly. And that’s all it needs to be. The only thing that I would add is a mechanical shutter that can go to 1/8000s. That would be a great upgrade. 

In terms of the viewfinder . Instead of EVFs all it needs is a zoomable finder. The Fuji XPro2 could magnify the OVF. If the Leica M viewfinder could have 2 magnifications it would be awesome. 

That’s why I say, those who just want the last true great Leica M digital rangefinder better get on the M10R before they stop making them. 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Chimichurri

[SrMi]

34 minutes ago, Chimichurri said:

They sort of created this problems by giving the M11 a 60MP sensor and super sharp lenses. They’re taking the simple rangefinder to where it didn’t need to go. 

40MP is a lot and doesn’t create this problem of IBIS. 

<snip>

 

I do no believe that 21% resolution increase has such an impact.

[Jeff S]

55 minutes ago, Chimichurri said:

In terms of the viewfinder . Instead of EVFs all it needs is a zoomable finder. The Fuji XPro2 could magnify the OVF. If the Leica M viewfinder could have 2 magnifications it would be awesome. 

 

The Fuji lacks a true rangefinder. Leica wants the best RF experience, and has so far extracted the best performance it can AFAIK.

If Leica ever produces an EVF-based M (however oxymoronic that sounds), I suspect that it, too, will be the best viewing experience possible; and that it will coexist with a traditional RF version. Leica has already simultaneously produced different M versions… color-based and Monochrom…screen-less…different MP count… film and digital… etc.  
 

Jeff

[Jeff S]

2 hours ago, hdmesa said:

Gonna fight you on the IBIS

For handheld shooting of stationary subjects, it’s one of most useful advances in digital photographic history. You essentially get about 5 stops of real world ISO advantage in low light, which is more than we will ever get with generational updates to the sensors (we’re near the theoretical limit for high ISO already). And for handheld at 60mp, the difference in sharpness at high magnification with IBIS versus without can be stunning, particularly with 50mm and longer lenses.

I’d rather they have added IBIS than live off-sensor metering. But problem is not added complication, it’s lack of room inside the M body. SL2 cameras are rock solid and lockup-free and they have IBIS, so there is no correlation with “complication” being an issue.

Same here. With benign tremor in one hand, this would be welcome if Leica could successfully implement without compromising size or creating heat problems.  I don’t want feature bloat… my SL2 does things I don’t expect or need or want in my M bodies…. but IBIS is different for my priorities.  

Jeff

[lct]

1 hour ago, Chimichurri said:

[...] I think the M11 already went too far with this 60MP sensor that creates problems on a simple rangefinder (like the need for IBIS for instance) [...] those who just want the last true great Leica M digital rangefinder better get on the M10R before they stop making them.

Not sure to see your rationale here. The M10R has a 41mp sensor w/o IBIS yet. What sense does it make to buy it rather than the M11 then? In my experience re camera shake (M11, Sony A7r2) there is no significant difference between 60mp and 40mp in this respect. In both cases one needs IBIS, a tripod, cranked up shutter speeds or rock solid hands to get sharp results at full resolution.

Edited November 16, 2022 by lct

[Tailwagger]

3 hours ago, hdmesa said:

Gotcha. I will add the caveat that the M10 variants I had (P/M/R) would all lockup with a Sony Tough card. But with regular speed Sandisk, I didn’t get a lockup. Maybe I didn’t stay in live view enough like you did, though. My guess would be something heat-related if you used live view 100% of the time. These bodies are so small, so crammed full of stuff, and very tightly sealed even without true weather sealing — nowhere for the heat to go.

I've always exclusively used Sandisk as Ive never had a problem traceable to one of their cards.  By LV, to be clear, this was with the 020, not rear screen.  With the M10, yes, definitely heat was a well known problem but for the 10-R, I think this explanation, at least as the only source is less likely.  As as been the case with the M11, pop the battery and everything works fine, often for many hours through the rest of the session.  The other interesting thing about the M10 heat issue is that AFAICR it typically was only seen with new batteries. Once conditioned the overheating problem largely went away.  So heat may account for some issues, but spinlocks, semiphores, unexpected interrupts in unprotected critical sections are just as likely involved in my view.  Recall the missed button presses early on with the M11, all addressed by firmware when most folks were screaming that the hardware was crap.  

If I had to guess, and of course that's what we have to do, most lockups being experienced have to do with multi-tasking issues, like interleaving shooting with memory card operations.  Hardware is unlikely the root cause AFAIC as at least anecdotally I (and others) have experienced lockups with every Leica body I've owned including the SL2 and Q.  And you'll note that when the camera does lock, all buttons and switches are ignored forever unless and until you pull the battery and do a hard reboot. That absolutely screams some form of software lock contention. 

For those not versed in such things, simplistically, imagine that you find yourself out shopping with your spouse, you unexpectedly run into an old friend so you excuse yourself and go have a drink. After a pleasant chat, your friend drops you off at your home. You reach inside your pocket and find the key to your car, but no house key. You forgot your cell phone, so you are forced to wait until help arrives in the form of your wife arriving home. In the meantime, finished shopping, she walks to the family car only to find that the only key in her possession is the house key.  She can't drive home as she has no car key.  She calls your cell phone to let you know of her dilemma but as your phone is sitting on your dresser drawer inside the house and you're locked out, you never answer.  She keeps calling, you keep waiting. You reach deadlock. 

Now, of course, you may laugh at the above and chuckle that could never actually happen in real life. But if somehow it actually did, no matter how unexpected, in ordered to prevent a reoccurrence, you'd need to retrace all the steps that led you to that point to figure out how to avoid what went wrong.  And all too often, given you never anticipated this sort of problem as being remotely possible, you might never be able to figure out just how you could ever find yourself in such an odd situation. You just guess as to a cause, erect a barrier or two and when you don't get locked out again for a week or two, you forget all about it.

With any camera, there are a whole crap ton of events occurring completely independently of each other randomly in time but many of which are similarly interdependent and require some form of synchronization. Certain things can't be allowed to happen, for example powering off while in the middle of saving an image to the SD card.  Now toss in coordinating metering, image processing, shutter actuation, moving data from sensor to processor to buffer to card, display to LV, button presses altering various modes of operations, playback, zooming, yada, yada, yada and it becomes a bit easier to at least be sympathetic as to why some issues can be difficult to reproduce and trace. 

Just as Windows isn't completely rewritten every time a new computer is released it's nearly certain that the bulk of the software running in the 11 has been around for many years in previous models. But as processors improve, cards get faster in the face of workloads getting larger, code that has run for years without issue can all of a sudden become far less reliable due to timing changes or added features never anticipated when it was first written. As my father used to remark, 'if a system appears to be working, all you really know at the moment is that the sum of the bugs is zero.'  He acquired this adage when a seemingly innocuous change to an obscure switching computer nearly brought down the entire Bell system as it wound up exposing a series of hitherto unknown bugs.  My guess is that Leica is perhaps experiencing something similar. 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Tailwagger

[Chimichurri]

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Edited November 16, 2022 by Chimichurri

[Chimichurri]

2 hours ago, Jeff S said:

The Fuji lacks a true rangefinder. Leica wants the best RF experience, and has so far extracted the best performance it can AFAIK.

If Leica ever produces an EVF-based M (however oxymoronic that sounds), I suspect that it, too, will be the best viewing experience possible; and that it will coexist with a traditional RF version. Leica has already simultaneously produced different M versions… color-based and Monochrom…screen-less…different MP count… film and digital… etc.  
 

Jeff

It already has an EVF. Just keep making that better.

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[Chimichurri]

2 hours ago, lct said:

Not sure to see your rationale here. The M10R has a 41mp sensor w/o IBIS yet. What sense does it make to buy it rather than the M11 then? In my experience re camera shake (M11, Sony A7r2) there is no significant difference between 60mp and 40mp in this respect. In both cases one needs IBIS, a tripod, cranked up shutter speeds or rock solid hands to get sharp results at full resolution.

Like this amazing up close ability photo (where nothing really is accurately in focus because the M can’t focus accurately below 0.7m unless your eyes are failing due to very old age) here for example. It’s a blurry mess 

 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Chimichurri