My new M11 is bricked... Leica Spain

[Chimichurri]

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@silverimage From JANUARY! 

Back then saying the same thing they’re saying now. Firmware problems. Teething issues.. It’s a faulty batch… Now it’s November 12… at some point we gotta say okay. I’m not a rich Leica collector. I’m just a regular guy. I invested a whole lot of money I saved to get my dream camera. This just can’t be the way it goes… 

I wish you happy times like me.. don’t give up on it and get a good Leica M. You’ll own it happily forever… 

 

 

[elmars]

The firmware of the M11 is in a bad state. We hope it gets better with a soon coming update. But a Leica guy said recently the M11 is the Leica M with the lowest „home coming rate“. This means in my opinion that there is no fundamental hardware problem. 

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[Qlan]

1 minute ago, elmars said:

The firmware of the M11 is in a bad state. We hope it gets better with a soon coming update. But a Leica guy said recently the M11 is the Leica M with the lowest „home coming rate“. This means in my opinion that there is no fundamental hardware problem. 

Interested in the source if you have it. I'm experiencing almost all the freezes people have been reported here, and I'm in the first week of owning my new M11 (package date in August):

Quote

(From the link in the previous post, original quote is from January)

As I understand @Meisyong has described two scearios that resuled in a freeze:

1.  Simply moving the power switch from the off to on position with the lens cap on.

2.  Pressing the shutter release button while the camera is on and in live-view mode but with the lens cap off.

As well as others:

3. Orange light of death (but not bricking) (just once)

4. File unreadable just after taking the picture (just once)

(Most common freeze for me is #1 but freezes have become less frequent). So far, a battery pop has unfreezed the camera. I really hope the big firmware update that is supposed to be coming in the fall will reduce the frequency of the freezes, as it seems too optimistic that it will solve all of them. 

[elmars]

I have nearly no freezes. But I have extreme overexposure from time to time. Don‘t know what is better. 

[DenverSteve]

Part of the issue is that there hasn't been one, or two, experienced issues.  Some sound like software. Some may not be.  So far, I haven't heard one person who has had a camera replacement state that Leica advised them what the issue was/is.  If it were just hardware, and it was fixed after the first release, no one would be experiencing the issue.  If it was a batch problem, Leica should issue a watch/recall for those in the batch - before people experience a catastrophic failure mid-shoot. I would like an advisory, at least, to watch out for potential issues with serial numbers.  Evan periodic freezing up is unacceptable because that's not how the camera is supposed to work.   It doesn't matter that the camera costs $9000 or $500, proper operation is expected.   Every modern electronic product is a very-complicated piece of equipment but we shouldn't have to wait until a unit is bricked or experiencing issues before the company notifies you of a potential issue.  It doesn't have to be a widespread announcement, at least send it to all registered owners.  Also, since Leica licenses the M mount to other makers, and since earlier M lenses weren't coded, it shouldn't be coded vs, non-coded issue. 

 

Actually, if everyone experiencing operational issues would post their serial numbers, we might see a pattern. 

Edited November 13, 2022 by DenverSteve

[hmzimelka]

17 hours ago, elmars said:

The firmware of the M11 is in a bad state. We hope it gets better with a soon coming update. But a Leica guy said recently the M11 is the Leica M with the lowest „home coming rate“. This means in my opinion that there is no fundamental hardware problem. 

I wouldn't be surprised if this proverbial big firmware update comes next year... this whole year Leica seems to have been quietly extending the release of this firmware to the point where now it's mid November and does anything really happen in December? 

I wouldn't dare use the M11 professionally.

[charlesphoto99]

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I'll bet a huge firmware update won't come for a couple of years. When it does, it will be called the M12. 

[lct]

15 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

I'll bet a huge firmware update won't come for a couple of years. When it does, it will be called the M12. 

The M11 has only got 2 firmware updates so far vs 10 for the M240 so all hope is not lost . Being in a hurry can only be hopeless with an old dame like Leica anyway but nobody can be forced to get a new body repaired if it is faulty. If mine had problems some of us are reporting here i would have required a replacement or a refund immediately.

[Chimichurri]

45 minutes ago, lct said:

The M11 has only got 2 firmware updates so far

1) 1.2.1.0 (January)

2) 1.3.0.0 (March)

3) 1.4.0.0 (May)

4) 1.5.0.1 (August)

[Chimichurri]

1 hour ago, charlesphoto99 said:

I'll bet a huge firmware update won't come for a couple of years. When it does, it will be called the M12. 

I remember the Fuji XT2. When Fuji used to Keizen everything. No longer though. You would get a camera that was working fine. And then from time to time Fuji would release updates that would just make your camera better, faster, new features. They would squeeze everything out of the hardware until there was nowhere else to go. Even when they had the new one out. They wouldn’t forget about you. 

Not anymore though. 

[Tailwagger]

While I've had the odd lock up here and there, I frankly haven't found the M11 to be any worse than any of my previous Ms in that regard, though I'll admit my shooting has been somewhat diminished this year vs. previous ones. Still 7k+ frames since purchase, so while not heavy use, not light either. 

Early on the M11 had a set of what, at least from the outside appeared to be classic multi-tasking contention problems, button presses being missed for example. Hunting down and slaying such problems, often have nothing to do with resolve or money, but rather the limits of human understanding.  It often is impossible to prove something has been fixed and in fact, many times where it might appear to be so, the reality turns out to be that the timing window where an error could occur had been reduced, but not eliminated and so the problem is still seen occasionally, but by far fewer users. 

It's worth mentioning that it can turn out that a bug which you'd swear was a software problem is in fact caused by a deeply hidden one in hardware.  Without going into details, I can state I've been involved in a number of situations where the processor had embedded design flaws which wound up being responsible for some very serious, but extremely infrequent failures. In one case, I can recall some very smart colleagues I was working with discovered one in an Intel processor design which had plagued our company's software for over half a decade.  Dozens of engineers had been working on and off on this problem for over seven years; it had been assumed to be a flaw in our (very complex) software until it was finally pinpointed as a bug in microcode that spanned multiple generations of silicon.

Point being that Leica, as is true of most manufacturers small and large, does not have end to end control of the product as perhaps they once did a century ago. And while they certainly bear some responsibility, despite making a superhuman effort, they may simply not be equipped in all instances to get to a perfect result. 

[hdmesa]

3 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

While I've had the odd lock up here and there, I frankly haven't found the M11 to be any worse than any of my previous Ms in that regard, though I'll admit my shooting has been somewhat diminished this year vs. previous ones. Still 7k+ frames since purchase, so while not heavy use, not light either. 

Early on the M11 had a set of what, at least from the outside appeared to be classic multi-tasking contention problems, button presses being missed for example. Hunting down and slaying such problems, often have nothing to do with resolve or money, but rather the limits of human understanding.  It often is impossible to prove something has been fixed and in fact, many times where it might appear to be so, the reality turns out to be that the timing window where an error could occur had been reduced, but not eliminated and so the problem is still seen occasionally, but by far fewer users. 

It's worth mentionin that it can turn out that a bug which you'd swear was a software problem is in fact caused by a deeply hidden one in hardware.  Without going into details, I can state I've been involved in a number of situations where the processor had embedded design flaws which wound up being responsible for some very serious, but extremely infrequent failures. In one case, I can recall some very smart colleagues I was working with discovered one in an Intel processor design which had plagued our company's software for over half a decade.  Dozens of engineers had been working on and off on this problem for over seven years; it had been assumed to be a flaw in our (very complex) software until it was finally pinpointed as a bug in microcode that spanned multiple generations of silicon.

Point being that Leica, as is true of most manufacturers small and large, does not have end to end control of the product as perhaps they once did a century ago. And while they certainly bear some responsibility, despite making a superhuman effort, they may simply not be equipped in all instances to get to a perfect result. 

Agree with your post except the first part – the M10-R was rock solid. Zero freezes, lockups, etc. for me.

I'm confident based on what I and others experienced with the launch of the Canon R5, that lockups like these are not the result of firmware issues, they are the result of bad main boards: cost-saving short cuts, lack of quality control, etc. on the part of the suppliers. The M11 logic board is going to end up being the new M9 sensor – it will need replacing globally. I hope I'm wrong, of course, but I get a bad feeling about it.

Edited November 16, 2022 by hdmesa

[Tailwagger]

1 hour ago, hdmesa said:

Agree with your post except the first part – the M10-R was rock solid. Zero freezes, lockups, etc. for me.

Wish I could say the same, but I sadly I can't.  It's important to note that there are dozens of variables involved, but likely a key differentiator in my case is that I shoot in LV 95% of the time and have all the way back to the 240.  Now that LV is essentially the standard, others are perhaps experiencing these things more often.  Dunno...

[tightsqueez]

12 hours ago, hdmesa said:

Agree with your post except the first part – the M10-R was rock solid. Zero freezes, lockups, etc. for me.

I’ve owned two M10M cameras totaling over two years and have never had a single issue. 
 

I really want an M11 (for color) but won’t touch one… M10-R might be the ticket. 
 

Reliability is the greatest luxury. 

[charlesphoto99]

10 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

Wish I could say the same, but I sadly I can't.  It's important to note that there are dozens of variables involved, but likely a key differentiator in my case is that I shoot in LV 95% of the time and have all the way back to the 240.  Now that LV is essentially the standard, others are perhaps experiencing these things more often.  Dunno...

I've had a couple of lockups with my M10-R (black paint), and on occasion the back buttons will stop working (heat perhaps?). So no, nothing perfect there. My M9 (and M8 if I recall) had lots of battery resets. My basic M10 (bought first month of release) never had a problem. Which imo points to a not robust enough of a cpu (and/or logic board) with enough overhead to handle 60MP, live view always on, and a bunch of button pushes. I guess the M11 also has longer startup time from standby - all things considered, shouldn't it be shorter than the previous gens? Or even non-exstent by now? The M11 is underpowered. No idea what firmware can do about that (I guess streamlining processes). My hope is Leica realize an M someday minus the electronic bells and whistles (crutches if you ask me) and use an oversized cpu and finally give us instant wake up (like my Nikons have always done for decades now) and less freezes. 

[lct]

2 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

The M11 is underpowered. [...]

Not my feeling i must say. I found all my digital Ms rather sluggish previously but the M11 is the first one i can use more or less the same way in RF and LV mode. Only cons for me are shutter speeds that cannot be as slow as i would like, for lack of IBIS, and shutter actuation times too long for my taste but there is no significant lag on that body so i can live with those features if Leica cannot find suitable solutions. YMMV.

[Chimichurri]

33 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

I've had a couple of lockups with my M10-R (black paint), and on occasion the back buttons will stop working

I’ve had a problem that was a faulty SD card. Other than that nothing in a year. 

 

34 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

I guess the M11 also has longer startup time from standby - all things considered, shouldn't it be shorter than the previous gens? Or even non-exstent by now?

It all changed when they went for sensor metering. And I agree with you that it should be instant on. Waking up my BP 10R takes a second. 

 

35 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

the electronic bells and whistles

This is what annoyed my most about the M11. The M is getting way too complicated all to lure the mirrorless people.

22 minutes ago, lct said:

IBIS

M’s shouldn’t have any of that. They should be very simple cameras. all these aides just make people lazy, stupid, and dependent on the camera to do the work for them. 

M’s were always about simplicity. And in that comes limitations. And in the limitations comes creativity. 

Start adding more bells and whistles and crutches and more aides and you’ll end up with yet another mirrorless camera. 

Because why stop at IBIS? An EVF would be amazing too. Why stop there? Give me auto focus too. That’ll make it even easier. 

[Wonzo]

vor 41 Minuten schrieb charlesphoto99:

 

My hope is Leica realize an M someday minus the electronic bells and whistles

Can you please explain this to me. I've never before heard any bells or whistles from my various Ms ... did I miss something ?

[lct]

Star Wars vs Jurassic Park . Just kidding. The M12 will have IBIS most probably. We shall see.

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[Chimichurri]

6 minutes ago, lct said:

Star Wars vs Jurassic Park . Just kidding. The M12 will have IBIS most probably. We shall see.

Hopefully an EVF too. It’s better than a rangefinder anyway. And an autofocus adapter. And then it’ll be a Fuji. I mean. It’ll be amazing.