Leica M11 - your next camera? {MERGED}

[Thejoon]

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ah.....

M11 Silver or black???

I always love M silver, but I do care about the weight too. 

Hard to make a call on weight vs color preference.  sigh

[scott kirkpatrick]

7 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

Learn something new every day. Fooled by my past experience with other camera's RAW files and simply moved that forward. A quick check of the spec confirms that color info is embedded (some of it, optionally) in the DNG.  As Leica utilizes the format natively, I'm sure you're correct that the color info is in there.  Presumably the color profiles in the Adobe/CameraRaw/CameraProfiles/Adobe Standard dir, where as yet there is no M11 profile, are their own take on things. 

This followed several off-the-mark comments that Leica (and others) release cameras to the public with no color information.  DNG's can be read by any of us in a text editor. You will find  Leica's have two sets of basic color information.  One group lists reference color intensities at 6000K, the other group does the same under a standard "tungsten" color temp illumination.  That's just the starting point.  Leica has also imposed some sort of tone curve to protect highlights before the data leaves the camera to the SD chip. (RAW ain't actually raw.)  The TIFF/DNG tells more, but I think those are the basics.  Building a profile (done differently by Adobe, C1, DxO, and others) sets choices away from the midpoint of the tone curves.  These take final production cameras in their own color labs, and getting them from Leica to each software vendor is not instant or early.

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[scott kirkpatrick]

6 hours ago, neekon said:

if I buy one, im hoping to have it around then as well, but I will be watching/reading a lot of reviews

 

6 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

Maybe I'll see you down there on Saturday. 

I'm in Jerusalem, hoping that I pass the Covid screen, get on a plane, and return next week.  I buy through Popflash when the line is short (which it won't be).  Do any local camera stores other than Leica Boston have a shot at getting early shipments?  

[adan]

6 hours ago, Adam Bonn said:

Re Leica's profiles:

Here's a genuine Leica M9 profile untouched by adobe/etc (converted to JSON so that we can read it!)

........

"CalibrationIlluminant2": "D65",

.........

"ColorMatrix2":

[ 0.626000, -0.101900, -0.047000 ],

[ -0.373000, 1.145000, 0.193000 ],

[ -0.140900, 0.295000, 0.621000 ]

]

What's all those number mean then?

I'm afraid "what all those numbers mean" in programmer-ese is one thing, but what do they mean in photographer-ese?

For simplicity. let's work with Colormatrix2 (which is D65 illuminant or "midday sunlight" and thus more useful)

Question 1. Does the ColorMatrix2 array represent relative primary color values

- either as a transform (multiply red by 0.626000, green by -0.101900, and blue by -0.047000 or some similar math)

- or something else (and if so what - in practical photographic terms)?

Question 2. Are those matrix values fixed values, set by a Leica progammer in the camera firmware, and the same in every .DNG the camera creates?

- or are they variables constantly changing (even within that matrix) as the camera operates?

Question 3. If fixed values - is that something that a Leica firmware programmer can pre-set, that will affect how colors will be or should be rendered.

e.g. if the first line of the matrix is chosen to be 0.726000, -0.121900, -0.037000 instead - will that result in different rendering of colors in some way, and how?

If Leica can and does choose and always include those specific numbers, is that not a perfectly good (if truncated) "profile" - it defines how LEICA wants the colors to render, by default.

To which Adobe, C1 --- or individual photographers --- can make their own adjustments and corrections, using the control sliders in software calibration panels.

....................

I have been color-profiling cameras' raw output since 2006 (Sony R1) by simply photographing a Colorchecker in noon sunlight, using some "base" profile (Sony, Leica Adobe) and then using Bruce Fraser's (RIP) simple Real World Camera Raw technique of sliding around the sliders in the Adobe Calibration Panel iteratively until the RGB values for the additive primaries (RGB) are correctly rendered for Adobe RGB 1998 (e.g. Colorchecker primary-red patch = 152R, 48G, 58B).

Beautiful color, piece of cake.

And of course making my own "STDa" profile for yellow indoor light the same way - although LED lighting has fouled up just how consistent that is these days.

.................

BTW, no, I've never "wondered" about the M10's oranges.

That was reported - early on in this forum's "analysis" of M10 color characteristics nearly 5 years ago - to be an intentional change for the M10 (reds more orange) to reduce magenta skin tones in a "simplistic" white-balancing of skin under yellow indoor light (i.e. without other more sophisticated profile adjustments, which not all photographers would understand or use).

Skin tones in most cases being shades or tints of "orange." (samples from a mixed-race crowd, daylight - with the M10)

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

It also happens to produce MORE ACCURATE oranges even under daylight than the M9 - I photographed an orange sports car with both cameras as a test subject - and it came out correctly orange with the M10, while the M9 rendered it inaccurately as a much more magenta reddish (with identical WB for neutral grays).

Better rendering of real-world oranges was an M10 feature - not a bug.

Edited January 12, 2022 by adan

[Adam Bonn]

6 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

So I'm curious as to why this is the case. Too much redundant data to carry around in every file as opposed to supplying a global profile? Or something else?

Ultimately that would be a question for Leica and the answer might well be proprietary…

you can actually get far with a single colormatrix that maps from the values of D50 to camera RAW data

It might be (super hunchy on my part) something to do with Leica’s jpeg engine

For comparison,  Pixii cameras also shoot DNG, but their embedded profiles specify all the stuff that adobe standard profiles do and also their own tone curve, so Leica is definitely leaving all the extra stuff out on purpose - whatever their reasons

@adan

I’ll reply to you when I don’t have a pyjama clad 9 year old due at school in 49 minutes 

[Steven]

12 hours ago, snz said:

Good to hear but can you go into more detail about the finish of the black M11?

It's just not as nice as before. Not nice to look at, not nice to touch, and it marks very easily. I'm not talking about scratches, just dirt, from rubbing off your jacket, etc.... You need to constantly clean it if you want it mint looking. 

[scott kirkpatrick]

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Kirk Tuck seems to have sized up the announcement and M-series situation pretty accurately:

https://visualsciencelab.blogspot.com/2022/01/leakage-primary-marketing-strategy-of.html

He's an omnivore, who usually migrates every year or two but has settled comfortably into using Leica L-mount cameras with everybody but Leica's lenses.  His discussions of portrait session conduct and street shooting with interactions are insightful.  He seems to be able to shoot and talk at the same time.  In a recent post he met a couple of tourists, got a nervous shot of them together, homed in on the girl, and produced a series of smiles with her cooperation which ended up positively glowing.  Interesting approach.

Edited January 12, 2022 by scott kirkpatrick

[Meisyong]

2 hours ago, elmars said:

The new paint is very black (silky not matt) and very durable. No signs of use after some months.

Thanks for the feedback. Do you personally like the physical ‘feel’ of the new paint (black) while using it? Thanks. 

[dantemi]

13 minutes ago, Steven said:

It's just not as nice as before. Not nice to look at, not nice to touch, and it marks very easily. I'm not talking about scratches, just dirt, from rubbing off your jacket, etc.... You need to constantly clean it if you want it mint looking. 

Steven, I placed the order and I have a couple of hours to choose the colour. Apart from the esthetic, the black one does it seem to get scratched more easily than previous versions?

I don't mind wiping it but I'm more concerned as to its durability... thanks for your feedback 

[Steven]

39 minutes ago, dantemi said:

Steven, I placed the order and I have a couple of hours to choose the colour. Apart from the esthetic, the black one does it seem to get scratched more easily than previous versions?

I don't mind wiping it but I'm more concerned as to its durability... thanks for your feedback 

No idea, sorry. As crazy as it might sound coming from me, I havent tried to scratch it yet ! 

[Tuempel86]

Perhaps this finish is similar to Fuji's "Dura Black" (XPro3), which also seems to be quite susceptible to fingerprints, but quite resistant to signs of use.

[Steven]

45 minutes ago, Meisyong said:

Thanks for the feedback. Do you personally like the physical ‘feel’ of the new paint (black) while using it? Thanks. 

No, I don't like it as much, but it's not something I'm going to make a fuss about. I know others will, and its a pity, but I think it's an extraordinary camera, and I'm so happy with it that I really don't care about the new finish not being as nice as black chrome. After all, I used to think black chrome was not as nice as black paint. But I refuse to cry about it and waste some time on it. The camera takes great photos!

I actually completely disagree with Oswalt. Yes, the images are different, and it takes time to get used to change, always, but I LOVE THE IMAGES coming out of my M11 so far. Much better than the M10R to me. The colours and skin tones are great. The best way I can describe them, is that they ressemble more my SL2S than my M10R, and for me that's an extraordinary thing. I mean, no offense to Oswald, but out of all the amazing new things this camera can do, he focused on the lack of rubber protection of the usb c port in the bottom. Who the F**** cares !!!!! Im just happy there is usb c. Its so convenient. 

I really love the camera itself too. The lack of baseplate is superb. It looks and feels as premium or more than before. But like I've been saying for weeks, its the little details that make my life easier that please me the most. The fast shutter, the low ISO, the good image in the day and the night. The fact that you can set custom functions to buttons like on the SL is amazing. The menus, unlike what Oswald say, are better. Still simple as we expect from leica, but more complete. For example, a little change I love is that you now create your own list of coded lens. This way, when I mount a non coded lens, I don't have to scroll through a huge list, but just the list of lenses I own. It is really a superb camera, and I like it so much that I havent picked up my film M today! First time in a while. 

But its not perfect. They are things that still piss me off. The most most most annoying thing is that the startup time is still slow. Maybe even slower now, because when you turn it on you hear the live view thing, and it feels just slow and awkward. 

[Steven]

8 minutes ago, Tuempel86 said:

Perhaps this finish is similar to Fuji's "Dura Black" (XPro3), which also seems to be quite susceptible to fingerprints, but quite resistant to signs of use.

I like black, I got the black, and I think everyone should do like me and not worry and go spend hours on threads analysing the details of the new finish. It's not as nice as before, but its completely fine guys. The rest is just nitpicking. 

[Steven]

And by the way, it's so early to give an opinion on the sensor of the M11. I think it's going to be fantastic, but I personally can't tell. Maybe people like Jono, who probably have had the camera for long enough to know, will give us a better indication in their reviews. But what do I know! I'm just a user, with very very subjective opinion, and not enough time with the camera to know. For example, something important to me is how it reacts with older lenses, and so far it seems to make my vintage optics come alive, but others might care about that. I also care for BW conversion, which I haven tried yet, to know if it could replace my spectacular M10M too, but other might not care for that either. 

You guys should really not worry about Oswald comment on the image quality. Wait and see for yourself. 

[dantemi]

31 minutes ago, Steven said:

No idea, sorry. As crazy as it might sound coming from me, I havent tried to scratch it yet ! 

thanks for your reply

[threeseed]

8 minutes ago, Steven said:

You guys should really not worry about Oswald comment on the image quality. Wait and see for yourself. 

Would be really surprised if there was an issue with the image quality.

M11 uses a 61MP version of the SL2-S sensor which produces fantastic results especially keeping noise under control at ISO 6400+

[Meisyong]

25 minutes ago, Steven said:

No, I don't like it as much, but it's not something I'm going to make a fuss about. I know others will, and its a pity, but I think it's an extraordinary camera, and I'm so happy with it that I really don't care about the new finish not being as nice as black chrome. After all, I used to think black chrome was not as nice as black paint. But I refuse to cry about it and waste some time on it. The camera takes great photos!

I actually completely disagree with Oswalt. Yes, the images are different, and it takes time to get used to change, always, but I LOVE THE IMAGES coming out of my M11 so far. Much better than the M10R to me. The colours and skin tones are great. The best way I can describe them, is that they ressemble more my SL2S than my M10R, and for me that's an extraordinary thing. I mean, no offense to Oswald, but out of all the amazing new things this camera can do, he focused on the lack of rubber protection of the usb c port in the bottom. Who the F**** cares !!!!! Im just happy there is usb c. Its so convenient. 

I really love the camera itself too. The lack of baseplate is superb. It looks and feels as premium or more than before. But like I've been saying for weeks, its the little details that make my life easier that please me the most. The fast shutter, the low ISO, the good image in the day and the night. The fact that you can set custom functions to buttons like on the SL is amazing. The menus, unlike what Oswald say, are better. Still simple as we expect from leica, but more complete. For example, a little change I love is that you now create your own list of coded lens. This way, when I mount a non coded lens, I don't have to scroll through a huge list, but just the list of lenses I own. It is really a superb camera, and I like it so much that I havent picked up my film M today! First time in a while. 

But its not perfect. They are things that still piss me off. The most most most annoying thing is that the startup time is still slow. Maybe even slower now, because when you turn it on you hear the live view thing, and it feels just slow and awkward. 

Excellent. Appreciate your thoughts about this.

[Steven]

Just now, threeseed said:

Would be really surprised if there was an issue with the image quality.

M11 uses a 61MP version of the SL2-S sensor which produces fantastic results especially keeping noise under control at ISO 6400+

Yes, that’s what I’m seeeing! The images look like they were taken with my SL2S. All the changes and improvements as a matter of fact are making this camera feel to me like a mini SL2S. 
 

i LOVE IT I LOVE IT I LOVE IT 

[Meisyong]

6 minutes ago, Steven said:

Yes, that’s what I’m seeeing! The images look like they were taken with my SL2S. All the changes and improvements as a matter of fact are making this camera feel to me like a mini SL2S. 
 

i LOVE IT I LOVE IT I LOVE IT 

I’m planning to get this with the APO Summicron-M 35. Would love to hear your thoughts on the combination too please

Edited January 12, 2022 by Meisyong

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[threeseed]

2 minutes ago, Meisyong said:

I’m planning to get this with the APO Summicron-M 35. Would love to hear your thoughts on the combination too please

Interesting question. Especially with the black M11 as to whether the lighter weight and increased MP affects the percentage of blurry images.

Or whether it's better going with the Summilux 35 FLE.