Leica M11 - your next camera? {MERGED}

[Ba Erv]

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21 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

My dad was known to invoke that same euphemism on occasion. 

It has since been retired in our household with the advent of the mother of all euphemisms:  "As useless as taste buds on an [asp]hole."  It is my fervent hope that the M11 does not come to be referred to as such.

I figured someone might get it.

[Alistairm]

3 hours ago, SrMi said:

I do not worry about exposed USB-C port. All my smartphones have exposed USB-C or Lightning ports. People are snorkeling with their iPhones.

And I’m betting you don’t wonder whether your pre-release iPhone XX that you were given a week before the official release to allow you to trash talk it online came with a USB port cover or you’ve just lost it. Honestly, the post you’re replying to was just trolling. The poster will likely never have an M11 in hand and certainly doesn’t now!

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[SrMi]

7 minutes ago, neekon said:

Please explain why it doesn’t make any sense at all?  Using any M thus fair in live view mode(with the shutter up and sensor active) has been a subpar experience, at least in my experience using it.  I have rarely use live view for that exact reason, it feels like something tacked on to appease a certain subset of people. 
Additionally, the M10 battery life has been subpar, even without this fancy new metering system.   
The M is not a normal MILC, and should not be treated as one.  If I wanted a camera that is only really useable when you shoot with the EVF, I would shoot exclusively with my GFX or similar.  It is fine to have the sensor be active 24/7 in a camera system designed for it, the M is not designed for it.  Or at least it hasn’t been thus far.  My concern is that we will have a repeat of the M240 series, a radical change in both the sensor technology and internal working of the camera that never quite took off or caught on.   The M10 was a great success for Leica, and is an amazing platform(battery and live view not withstanding).  The M11 should not completely due away with the older metering style, at least have the option for people that want it.   
As has been stated before, I am happy to eat my words, I am happy to admit that the implementation is better with the M11, however with the info given to us, it sounds like a hands on is needed, or a review is needed.   
 

My comment was related to your concern: "Huge battery drain and huge risk to the sensor." because the sensor is live all the time.

According to everything we know now, M11 will have a shutter similar to other mirrorless cameras, not like M10's live view implementation.

The primary battery drain with mirrorless cameras is EVF/LCD, not reading from the sensor. Even Leica SL2 cameras do not always have live-view active (EVF extended mode).

I also do not see a huge risk for the sensor. Most mirrorless cameras have the sensor constantly exposed, even when shut off. I never heard that someone damaged the sensor because of the sensor being exposed. I have been using mirrorless cameras for many years and have never had any issues.

The M11 battery is specified as 700 shots in rangefinder mode (CIPA standard). Nikon Z7 is rated for 420 shots (LCD), 360 shots (EVF).

 

[Tailwagger]

18 minutes ago, neekon said:

 It is fine to have the sensor be active 24/7 in a camera system designed for it, the M is not designed for it.  Or at least it hasn’t been thus far. 

Precisely, assuming thus far doesn't include the M11.  I'd submit that the folks in Leica engineering aren't complete idiots. The move away from a decades old, tricky to predict metering system is a both a conscious and positive one.  Presumably the larger battery is a partial response to that. All the reports are that battery life is significantly improved, so I think until we have proof to the contrary, we can at least give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they understood this issue and addressed it. They do want to sell a few of these things after all.

[neekon]

1 minute ago, SrMi said:

 

My comment was related to your concern: "Huge battery drain and huge risk to the sensor." because the sensor is live all the time.

According to everything we know now, M11 will have a shutter similar to other mirrorless cameras, not like M10's live view implementation.

The primary battery drain with mirrorless cameras is EVF/LCD, not reading from the sensor. Even Leica SL2 cameras do not always have live-view active (EVF extended mode).

I also do not see a huge risk for the sensor. Most mirrorless cameras have the sensor constantly exposed, even when shut off. I never heard that someone damaged the sensor because of the sensor being exposed. I have been using mirrorless cameras for many years and have never had any issues.

The M11 battery is specified as 700 shots in rangefinder mode (CIPA standard). Nikon Z7 is rated for 420 shots (LCD), 360 shots (EVF).

 

I did mention elsewhere in the thread, after my original post, but I may have been wrong about my "risk to the sensor" sensor comment.   I have and have had many mirrorless camera, current being the GFX100s and am never concerned about eh sensor.  So I retract that comment.  

Really need some actual reviews or hands on experience with it.  Everything is all speculation at the moment.   I do think this could be the last rangefinder M though(if its successful)

[neekon]

10 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

Precisely, assuming thus far doesn't include the M11.  I'd submit that the folks in Leica engineering aren't complete idiots. The move away from a decades old, tricky to predict metering system is a both a conscious and positive one.  Presumably the larger battery is a partial response to that. All the reports are that battery life is significantly improved, so I think until we have proof to the contrary, we can at least give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they understood this issue and addressed it. They do want to sell a few of these things after all.

Of course Leica's engineers are not idiots, but it is just an overly drastic change that it could be very divisive.  I am all for change, I think it could be a good metering system, if its implemented properly and doesn't make the camera feel sluggish.  A better solution would be to include the new metering mode, and the old one as an option.  We are paying nearly 9000-10000$ for this thing, they could at least add the archaic system as a backup.  

I hope the battery life is what the reports say it is. I hope that all my concerns are addressed and I am just asking where to put my credit card.  

I hope its the best M to date.  I really do.  

we will all know in a lil over a day, either way, should be an interesting few days 

Edited January 12, 2022 by neekon

[Herr Barnack]

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4 minutes ago, neekon said:

Of course Leica's engineers are not idiots, but it is just an overly drastic change that is likely to be very divisive...

I hope the battery life is what the reports say it is. I hope that all my concerns are addressed and I am just asking where to put my credit card.  

I hope its the best M to date.  I really do.  

we will all know in a lil over a day, either way, should be an interesting few days 

Couldn't agree more.

Edited January 12, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[kinch123]

1 hour ago, Ba Erv said:

Steve Huff’s YT videos…my dad used to occasionally mention the virtues of mammaries on male swine.

 Well there's always Huff's back catalogue.

[hdmesa]

56 minutes ago, neekon said:

I did mention elsewhere in the thread, after my original post, but I may have been wrong about my "risk to the sensor" sensor comment.   I have and have had many mirrorless camera, current being the GFX100s and am never concerned about eh sensor.  So I retract that comment.  

Really need some actual reviews or hands on experience with it.  Everything is all speculation at the moment.   I do think this could be the last rangefinder M though(if its successful)

 

49 minutes ago, neekon said:

Of course Leica's engineers are not idiots, but it is just an overly drastic change that it could be very divisive.  I am all for change, I think it could be a good metering system, if its implemented properly and doesn't make the camera feel sluggish.  A better solution would be to include the new metering mode, and the old one as an option.  We are paying nearly 9000-10000$ for this thing, they could at least add the archaic system as a backup.  

I hope the battery life is what the reports say it is. I hope that all my concerns are addressed and I am just asking where to put my credit card.  

I hope its the best M to date.  I really do.  

we will all know in a lil over a day, either way, should be an interesting few days 

 

 

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, neekon said:

<snip>

Id like to add, Like will the shutter need to open every time the camera turns on? That seems like it would slowdown startup and wakeup at least.  
Or will they go with a full exposed sensor and just use the shutter for exposure like the SL?  
Will it even be a rangefinder/OVF camera anymore? or is it really just a MILC EVF camera with an optional OVF?   

I will wait for reviews and/or hands on till I make a final decision, but I am not nearly as excited about the camera as I was just a few days ago.  

A rangefinder is defined by the OVF, not by the shutter mechanism. Pixii, another rangefinder camera, has only an electronic shutter (no LCD or EVF).

[neekon]

Just now, SrMi said:

A rangefinder is defined by the OVF, not by the shutter mechanism. Pixii, another rangefinder camera, has only an electronic shutter (no LCD or EVF).

I know what defines a rangefinder camera, I know what a rangefinder is, and I know its not just the OVF, but also to do with the focus mechanism of the lens, coupled to the camera body. 
 

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, neekon said:

Of course Leica's engineers are not idiots, but it is just an overly drastic change that it could be very divisive.  I am all for change, I think it could be a good metering system, if its implemented properly and doesn't make the camera feel sluggish.  A better solution would be to include the new metering mode, and the old one as an option.  We are paying nearly 9000-10000$ for this thing, they could at least add the archaic system as a backup.  

I hope the battery life is what the reports say it is. I hope that all my concerns are addressed and I am just asking where to put my credit card.  

I hope its the best M to date.  I really do.  

we will all know in a lil over a day, either way, should be an interesting few days 

The battery life that I quoted is computed using standardized tests (CIPA). That measurement typically shows less battery life than in practice. For example, Leica specs say 700 shots in accordance with CIPA Standard and no live-view (rangefinder mode), while in practice, it is more like 1700 shots (Leica's tests). To compare, your GFX100S has 460 shots per CIPA standard.

[SrMi]

4 minutes ago, neekon said:

I know what defines a rangefinder camera, I know what a rangefinder is, and I know its not just the OVF, but also to do with the focus mechanism of the lens, coupled to the camera body. 
 

Why do you question whether it will be a rangefinder if the shutter mechanism changes? What makes you worry that M11 will not be a rangefinder any longer?

[neekon]

7 minutes ago, SrMi said:

The battery life that I quoted is computed using standardized tests (CIPA). That measurement typically shows less battery life than in practice. For example, Leica specs say 700 shots in accordance with CIPA Standard and no live-view (rangefinder mode), while in practice, it is more like 1700 shots (Leica's tests). To compare, your GFX100S has 460 shots per CIPA standard.

ok, so it sounds like the battery life will be great on it then, which is awesome. 
 

4 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Why do you question whether it will be a rangefinder if the shutter mechanism changes? What makes you worry that M11 will not be a rangefinder any longer?

It was just a stupid comment, not really being serious with it.   

[_Alex_]

4 hours ago, hdmesa said:

So it begins. He says he's not going to review the M11, but then he reviews the M11 based on what he's heard. Um, ok.

<Huff Video Link clipped>

I'm not sure Huff has been relevant for a while now. I used to follow his blog, but it looks like he's just baiting for clicks with this video. He never managed to penetrate the Leica inner circle and has previously posted sour-grapes content when not invited to a release event. Leica is attaching itself to photographers that are doing things more than they are attaching themselves to professional reviewers. Their sponsorship of Vanasco and others that are doing work with Leicas rather than the professional review mafia gets them more credibility and more relevance with younger photographers. Like Harley Davidson, a heritage brand/product/model will suffer if it doesn't attract younger buyers. Folks like Vanasco, Nikk La, Marcus Russell Price, Andre Wagner, Ruddy Roye, and others that are seen creating meaningful work with Leica cameras do more for the brand than professional blogger opinions. 

Edited January 12, 2022 by _Alex_
grammar

[didier]

9 hours ago, petermullett said:

I just picked one up at a hefty discount, with a full 2 year Leica warranty..........

About getting a M10R, I am wondering if I am not going the same route as @petermullett to add a color M to my M10M…

May I ask what is for you a hefty discount on a new Leica M dear fellow forum members ?

thanks !

Edited January 12, 2022 by didier

[Chaemono]

Steve Huff is the reason I got my first Leica lens, the APO 50 Summicron-M, to shoot with my Sony, I thought. But then I bought an M 240 to go along with it. He is an excellent salesperson who loves to get people excited about gear. By that he veers very close to untruthfulness at times but never crosses the line in an egregious way, just in a provocative way, IMO. He will make amends when he gushes over the M11-S in an actual hands-on video review, I hope.

[elmars]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb derleicaman:

See my post above #5281. Leica has discontinued the black chrome process to a more environmentally friendly finish in black. It is not plated, but uses a different process. It feels very different than the familiar black chrome finish. It has more "tooth" to it, not as smooth as black chrome. Hard to describe, but when you experience it, you will understand. I agree with Steven that it will be another polarizing issue.

The new paint is very black (silky not matt) and very durable. No signs of use after some months.

[elmars]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb Oswalt:

The M11 is requiring more effort in terms of colour accuracy

I do not agree. M11 and M10R are very similar in color and in nearly every aspect of file handling.

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[hdmesa]

36 minutes ago, _Alex_ said:

I'm not sure Huff has been relevant for a while now. I used to follow his blog, but it looks like he's just baiting for clicks with this video. He never managed to penetrate the Leica inner circle and has previously posted sour-grapes content when not invited to a release event. Leica is attaching itself to photographers that are doing things more than they are attaching themselves to professional reviewers. Their sponsorship of Vanasco and others that are doing work with Leicas rather than the professional review mafia gets them more credibility and more relevance with younger photographers. Like Harley Davidson, a heritage brand/product/model will suffer if it doesn't attract younger buyers. Folks like Vanasco, Nikk La, Marcus Russell Price, Andre Wagner, Ruddy Roye, and others that are seen creating meaningful work with Leica cameras do more for the brand than professional blogger opinions. 

I would think it is hard to get on Leica's radar if all you're doing is shooting objects in your back yard like he does a lot. I can't say I do much more, but I'm not a YouTuber, either. He also has a focus problem with his YouTube channel in that he mixes a ton of audio reviews in with photography, and we are not always the same crowd.