Leica M11 - your next camera? {MERGED}

[Stevejack]

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47 minutes ago, neekon said:

I am surprise more haven't talked about the giant step back(IMO) to the metering.  According to the leaked specs the metering is done with the sensor in both live view and rangefinder modes, meaning the shutter has to be open and sensor(LV) active, even if I only ever want to use the OVF and Rangefinder.  Huge battery drain and huge risk to the sensor.  
 

If this is truly the case and I have to use the camera with the shutter open the entire time in live view, then the camera is DOA for me.  Thats a much bigger issue than color profiles.   

Lots of mirrorless cameras already doing this without any risk to the sensor, sensors are pretty resilient. 

I wonder about the battery drain though - if you're not running around with live view / EVF attached I can't see it being too much of an issue. It's always nice to have options though, and if there truly is a significant difference in battery life versus the old metering method it will aggravate a lot of people. 

[neekon]

Just now, Stevejack said:

Lots of mirrorless cameras already doing this without any risk to the sensor, sensors are pretty resilient. 

I wonder about the battery drain though - if you're not running around with live view / EVF attached I can't see it being too much of an issue. It's always nice to have options though, and if there truly is a significant difference in battery life versus the old metering method it will aggravate a lot of people. 

I am less worried about sensor damage as they are fairly resilient.  I just hate having to clean them, and having it constantly open when shooting, but closed when off just makes it a pain to clean.  Cleaning a normal mirrorless EVF camera is a lot easier.   

And yea, if the battery drain is significant, I could see a lot of aggravated people, myself included.  

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[hdmesa]

1 minute ago, neekon said:

At least in the Ralph Gibson one, where its most noticeable there does not appear to be a sensor to turn off the LCD.  At around the 2:09 mark in it, he is looking through the OVF and you can see the LV is on on the LCD.   
There also doesn't appear to be a sensor anywhere on the back of the body(just a status LCD).  
Again, I hope that you can turn it off, or it was implemented to be on all the time, but Leica can be really stupid sometimes

He probably had it set to be always on. Worst-case scenario is you have to turn the rear LCD off and on with a button, and that won't be a problem for me.

[LBJ2]

28 minutes ago, Oswalt said:

You are correct. Leica does not embed colour profiles into the DNG. They provide them to whatever software suite, and that is applied after interpolation. 
 

Which is why I like to work without profiles at least initially. They essentially give you a pretty accurate DNG after data has been interpolated. Adobe doesn't offer this, but it's closer on their "standard profile" to some degree. 

So which app or process did you use to judge the M11 RAW file? 

[neekon]

1 minute ago, hdmesa said:

He probably had it set to be always on. Worst-case scenario is you have to turn the rear LCD off and on with a button, and that won't be a problem for me.

you might right, I am happy to order one/buy one Thursday with a new EVF, battery and camera, just want to see/hold and learn more about it.  

 

Additionally, the SD card behind the battery seems moronic

[hdmesa]

1 minute ago, neekon said:

I just hate ...having it constantly open when shooting, but closed when off just makes it a pain to clean.

The shutter is closed when off for the M10, right? You have to enable sensor cleaning for it to open, right? We still don't know if the M11 shutter will be open or closed when powered off anyway. No one has said either way.

No problem with it being open while shooting – unless you're shooting with the lens off I guess

[neekon]

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1 minute ago, hdmesa said:

The shutter is closed when off for the M10, right? You have to enable sensor cleaning for it to open, right? We still don't know if the M11 shutter will be open or closed when powered off anyway. No one has said either way.

No problem with it being open while shooting – unless you're shooting with the lens off I guess

I mean yea the M10 shutter is closed when off, and you need to enable sensor cleaning to clean it, however the M10 shutter is closed when you are using it not in LV, so less chance of dust.  Again, thats more of an inconvenience vs real concern. 

[Stevejack]

4 minutes ago, neekon said:

I am less worried about sensor damage as they are fairly resilient.  I just hate having to clean them, and having it constantly open when shooting, but closed when off just makes it a pain to clean.  Cleaning a normal mirrorless EVF camera is a lot easier.   

And yea, if the battery drain is significant, I could see a lot of aggravated people, myself included.  

I think Leica (hopefully) realise that the rangefinder is why most people buy an M. If the enjoyment of using the camera in 'rangefinder mode' is in any way compromised by the e-shutter, or the new metering mode, or an always-on LCD   ...well surely not... that's all I can say 😅

 

[adan]

13 minutes ago, Stevejack said:

I wonder about the battery drain though - if you're not running around with live view / EVF attached I can't see it being too much of an issue.

One of those things that will require even deeper digging than most reviewers will bother with.

it is certainly the case that an electromechanical shutter (such as we have used since 1970 or therabouts) can be engineered to use magnets for opening/closing/holding-open shutters (some use motors).

And it is possible for the magnets to be "powered on" - standard electromagnet - plain iron core, magnetized by a current to be magnetic. Requires power to hold the shutter open.

Or to be "powered off" - the core is a permanent magnet, that is overruled by a coil current, but does not draw power while locked open.

Or even both, based on circumstances - depends.

(Those are of course simplifications).

The fact the M11 can now do a full hour of time exposure probably means it does not use much battery current to hold the shutter open. Whether for exposure or for fast quiet metering.

[neekon]

1 minute ago, Stevejack said:

I think Leica (hopefully) realise that the rangefinder is why most people buy an M. If the enjoyment of using the camera in 'rangefinder mode' is in any way compromised by the e-shutter, or the new metering mode, or an always-on LCD   ...well surely not... that's all I can say 😅

 

I will be happy to admit Im wrong, with my wallet by buying one.  
But no way to know until ive used it, or reviews come out.  Will try and get to a Leica store Thursday morning, otherwise, ill order and hope I can return or sell

[cboy]

Is the reason that leica opted for only sRGB colour space instead of the option for Adobe RGB in the M11. Is it so theres consistent colour accuracy between the LCD and evf?

Also I wonder if the colour accuracy would be the same in both the LCD and evf...seemed there was an issue in the Q2

 

[Stevejack]

3 minutes ago, neekon said:

I will be happy to admit Im wrong, with my wallet by buying one.  
But no way to know until ive used it, or reviews come out.  Will try and get to a Leica store Thursday morning, otherwise, ill order and hope I can return or sell

If they are in short supply I doubt you'll lose too much buying and selling if it's not working for you, someone will snap it up quickly if the alternative is a long backorder wait.

If supply is abundant, I'll hold off for a month or so to see what the early adopters think. 

You know I'm really interested to know what the M11 e-shutter sounds like... you know, the fake sounds they play when you're not in silent mode. I've always wished for a shutter with haptic feedback rather than an actual sound on my other mirrorless cameras, but with Leica's heritage who knows maybe they'll give us an M3 shutter sound. Would be kind of cool if the lower speeds have the 'snick - brrrrr' sound ... but it would sound gimmicky I'm sure 😜

[SrMi]

2 hours ago, Oswalt said:

Yes, I do. There are a number of reasons for this, but from where I start my edit (linear response) to finish, the m10r edits quite beautifully. The M11 is requiring more effort in terms of colour accuracy and reducing noise artifacts. 

That is all I will say at this point. Of course my opinion is subjective, and my intention isn't to rain on the current parade here. It's a good camera, no doubt (most current cameras are though). My gut is telling me the m10r will be similarly coveted like the m9 in a few years time. 
 

One other thing that is bugging me is the exposed usb - c port on the bottom of the camera. Normally there is a rubber plug, or cover. But I'm not sure if I misplaced mine or if it being bare is intended  

 

I do not worry about exposed USB-C port. All my smartphones have exposed USB-C or Lightning ports. People are snorkeling with their iPhones.

[neekon]

3 minutes ago, Stevejack said:

If they are in short supply I doubt you'll lose too much buying and selling if it's not working for you, someone will snap it up quickly if the alternative is a long backorder wait.

If supply is abundant, I'll hold off for a month or so to see what the early adopters think. 

You know I'm really interested to know what the M11 e-shutter sounds like... you know, the fake sounds they play when you're not in silent mode. I've always wished for a shutter with haptic feedback rather than an actual sound on my other mirrorless cameras, but with Leica's heritage who knows maybe they'll give us an M3 shutter sound. Would be kind of cool if the lower speeds have the 'snick - brrrrr' sound ... but it would sound gimmicky I'm sure 😜

You are right, I likely wouldn't lose anything on it if they are in short supply, however I know I would hate to wait a month, even if they are in abundant supply.   

Yea, lets see what they do with it,  eShutter always sound for feels weird. 

[Tailwagger]

38 minutes ago, neekon said:

At least in the Ralph Gibson one, where its most noticeable there does not appear to be a sensor to turn off the LCD.  At around the 2:09 mark in it, he is looking through the OVF and you can see the LV is on on the LCD.

The eye sensor and the ability to leave the rear display disabled has been the behavior since the 240. The 240 even had a switch on the EVF to enable/shut it down independent of the LV button on the camera. I understand your concern, but I'm 99% sure that its unfounded. And if it turns out the 1% is true, I'm sure there would be so much wailing and moaning about it... certainly I'd be shouting... that a firmware update would appear very shortly.

[neekon]

2 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

The eye sensor and the ability to leave the rear display disabled has been the behavior since the 240. The 240 even had a switch on the EVF to enable/shut it down independent of the LV button on the camera. I understand your concern, but I'm 99% sure that its unfounded. And if it turns out the 1% is true, I'm sure there would be so much wailing and moaning about it... certainly I'd be shouting... that a firmware update would appear very shortly.

Good to know, lets see in a couple days, as im sure we will have a lot more people happy to share their experiences with it. 
 

[Tailwagger]

15 minutes ago, SrMi said:

I do not worry about exposed USB-C port. All my smartphones have exposed USB-C or Lightning ports. People are snorkeling with their iPhones.

My current iPhone X as my 6 (IIRC) before it both developed a propensity to be difficult at times w.r.t to the cable making a fully working connection. The issue, dust and crud working its way in, is generally dealt with by shooting it with some compressed air, but over time the connection can become iffy. 

[Tailwagger]

2 minutes ago, neekon said:

Good to know, lets see in a couple days, as im sure we will have a lot more people happy to share their experiences with it.

With any luck I'll have my copy by Saturday. If no one else has yet to confirm this one way or the other, I'll let you know what the deal is. 

[neekon]

3 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

With any luck I'll have my copy by Saturday. If no one else has yet to confirm this one way or the other, I'll let you know what the deal is. 

if I buy one, im hoping to have it around then as well, but I will be watching/reading a lot of reviews

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[Tailwagger]

1 minute ago, neekon said:

if I buy one, im hoping to have it around then as well, but I will be watching/reading a lot of reviews

Maybe I'll see you down there on Saturday.