Leica M11 - your next camera? {MERGED}

[SrMi]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

It is OK to criticize M11 here and to prefer M10-R. After all, this is the M10 forum.

Just wait until we get our M11 forum 😈.

[hdmesa]

46 minutes ago, neekon said:

I mean yea the M10 shutter is closed when off, and you need to enable sensor cleaning to clean it, however the M10 shutter is closed when you are using it not in LV, so less chance of dust. ...

Less chance of dust from where? Prime lenses don't suck in dust like zooms do. Maybe if you use the MATE?

Edited January 12, 2022 by hdmesa

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[SrMi]

10 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

My current iPhone X as my 6 (IIRC) before it both developed a propensity to be difficult at times w.r.t to the cable making a fully working connection. The issue, dust and crud working its way in, is generally dealt with by shooting it with some compressed air, but over time the connection can become iffy. 

The main issue I had with iPhones/Pixels is that I often carry them in my pockets, which collect all kinds of crud and embed it in the nooks and crannies of the phones. Much fewer issues with tablets.

[hdmesa]

35 minutes ago, cboy said:

Is the reason that leica opted for only sRGB colour space instead of the option for Adobe RGB in the M11. Is it so theres consistent colour accuracy between the LCD and evf?

Also I wonder if the colour accuracy would be the same in both the LCD and evf...seemed there was an issue in the Q2

A video saying, "Watch this before doing X" pretty much guarantees I will not watch it before X. Even if it contains good info, video producers should be punished for clickbait titles.

[neekon]

9 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

Maybe I'll see you down there on Saturday. 

Unlikely, I live in NYC now, I moved last year.  Just haven't updated my profile, although its likely ill be buying it from Leica Boston.  Its where I have my name down.

8 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Less chance of dust from where? Prime lenses don't suck in dust like zooms do. Maybe if you use the MATE?

Dust can get in, in other ways than just a zoom lens.  But you are right, its less likely to happen with prime lenses, even though I have had some dusty M sensors in the past

[Tailwagger]

6 minutes ago, SrMi said:

The main issue I had with iPhones/Pixels is that I often carry them in my pockets, which collect all kinds of crud and embed it in the nooks and crannies of the phones. Much fewer issues with tablets.

True... but at the risk of admitting I'm a total slob, my camera bag isn't exactly up to emergency room standards of cleanliness. 😃

[tappan]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I still have my M9-P and my M10-P.
This camera looks great but I will stick with the M10-P. The slow buffer of the M9 drove me nuts, but it helped me to understand what owning a Leica RF was all about. It meant to not look at my Leicas the same way I look at my Canon 1DX. That is, take my time, don't "line 'em up and blast 'em". HOWEVER, a basic camera's buffering should NOT have acted like the M9's did. The M10-P for me means no more buffer problems. If I do experience any buffer lag, and I don't, it wold mean that I am shooting wrong, shooting too much. So, for that, I don't need anything faster (buffer-wise). I don't know why I would need the variable resolutions. Maybe somebody can help me with that.What would you use the variable DNG resolution for? I love the heavy weight/small package of the M10-P. Will I like the lighter weight/small package of the M11? I can't say. It looks like an amazing camera. I don't know that I would need such a powerhouse in the pixel count. The new meter and controlling of highlights is something that could sway me once the M11-P comes out. I read here, somewhere, that the few people talking about this being a cropped sensor are incorrect, correct?
Thanks. Mark

[hdmesa]

10 minutes ago, neekon said:

Dust can get in, in other ways than just a zoom lens.  But you are right, its less likely to happen with prime lenses, even though I have had some dusty M sensors in the past

99.9% of your dust gets in from lens changes. Even with the current M10 shutter, it's constantly opening and closing, so if dust were on the blades, it would be tossed around like leaves on a fall day. 

The biggest problem with dust on an M camera is the thin cover glass (dust is very much in focus) and the fact that we don't have any sensor-shake mechanism to clean the sensor off.

Edited January 12, 2022 by hdmesa

[SrMi]

4 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

True... but at the risk of admitting I'm a total slob, my camera bag isn't exactly up to emergency room standards of cleanliness. 😃

In that case, there are plenty of aftermarket USB-C dust plugs that one can buy.

[Adam Bonn]

Re Leica's profiles:

Here's a genuine Leica M9 profile untouched by adobe/etc (converted to JSON so that we can read it!)

"ProfileCalibrationSignature": "com.adobe",

"CalibrationIlluminant1": "StdA",

"CalibrationIlluminant2": "D65",

"ColorMatrix1": [

[ 0.856000, -0.203400, -0.006600 ],

[ -0.424000, 1.360000, 0.292000 ],

[ -0.074000, 0.247000, 0.898000 ]

],

"ColorMatrix2": [

[ 0.626000, -0.101900, -0.047000 ],

[ -0.373000, 1.145000, 0.193000 ],

[ -0.140900, 0.295000, 0.621000 ]

]

}

What's all those number mean then?

Let's look at the DNG spec to find out...

Quote

ColorMatrix1 defines a transformation matrix that converts XYZ values to reference camera
native color space values, under the first calibration illuminant. The matrix values are stored in
row scan order.
The ColorMatrix1 tag is required for all non-monochrome DNG files.
See Chapter 6, “Mapping Camera Color Space to CIE XYZ Space” on page 67 for details of the color-processing model

It's the same for colormatrix two, so we'd best we head to chapter 6 then

Quote

Definitions used in the following sections
Let n be the dimensionality of the camera color space (usually 3 or 4).
Let CM be the n-by-3 matrix interpolated from the ColorMatrix1 and ColorMatrix2 tags.
Let CC be the n-by-n matrix interpolated from the CameraCalibration1 and
CameraCalibration2 tags (or identity matrices, if the signatures don’t match).
Let AB be the n-by-n matrix, which is zero except for the diagonal entries, which are defined
by the AnalogBalance tag.
Let RM be the 3-by-n matrix interpolated from the ReductionMatrix1 and ReductionMatrix2
tags.
Let FM be the 3-by-n matrix interpolated from the ForwardMatrix1 and ForwardMatrix2 tags.

Hmmm ok that's a lot of stuff, let's keep reading

Quote

If the white balance is specified in terms of a CIE xy coordinate, then a camera neutral
coordinate can be derived by first finding the correlated color temperature for the xy value.
This value determines the interpolation weighting factor between the two sets of color
calibration tags.
The XYZ to camera space matrix is:
XYZtoCamera = AB * CC * CM
The camera neutral can be found by expanding the xy value to a 3-by-1 XYZ matrix (assuming
Y = 1.0) and multiplying it by the XYZtoCamera matrix:
CameraNeutral = XYZtoCamera * XYZ

Ok well we can do that bit because we have CMs (colormatrix 1 & 2) so yay - we can get a "as shot White Balance" value in Lightroom

Then,

Quote

Camera to XYZ (D50) Transform
DNG 1.2.0.0 and later support two methods of specifying the camera to XYZ (D50) transform,
depending on whether or not the forward matrix tags are included in the camera profile.
The use of the forward matrix tags is recommended for two reasons. First, it allows the camera
profile creator to control the chromatic adaptation algorithm used to convert between the
calibration illuminant and D50. Second, it causes the white balance adjustment (if the user
white balance does not match the calibration illuminant) to be done by scaling the camera
coordinates rather than by adapting the resulting XYZ values, which has been found to work
better in extreme cases.
 

Hmmm Forward Matrices... anyone see any of them in the profile above? (Hint: No*) Oh dear that seems like a pretty big omission really....

But what or who exactly is adapting the resulting XYZ values 

Well that would be LR/ACR... without the coordinates it tends to guess the chromatic adaption, often with hilarious (and by that I mean shit) consequences.

For example ever wonder why the M10 embedded profile under tungsten type light has too much orange in it?

The answer is because it contains no instructions for orange whatsoever.

So there is a Lecia profile, but all it does is tell the RAW app the mapping from camera native space to XYZ... which is a backbone thing and important, but it's not a colour profile per se at no point does it say lighten red or saturate green etc

By contrast Adobe's profiles have a ton of stuff in them, stuff that amounts to using the camera calibration tool / the HSL tool / the RGB tone curve tool if you wished to replicate it in LR/ACR

Also AFAIK (and I've much less experience with this) C1's DNG profile is rather generic and once they provide a camera profile it works very differently and can't really be accessed fully by a supported camera

Whether one likes/dislikes a colour profile is one thing. But it seems we haven't seen any complete M11 camera profiles yet, so let's wait and see (I dunno maybe the beta testers got given the adobe one... anyone?)

Sorry it's a lot of info and a dry subject. But IMHO it's also a misunderstood subject...

*Oh and PS... Don't fret too much you can actually make your own forward matrices

Quote

If the ForwardMatrix tags are not included in the camera profile:
1. First, invert the XYZtoCamera matrix.
If n = 3, this is:
CameraToXYZ = Inverse (XYZtoCamera)
If n > 3, and the reduction matrix tags are included, then:
CameraToXYZ = Inverse (RM * XYZtoCamera) * RM
Otherwise:
CameraToXYZ = PseudoInverse (XYZtoCamera)
2. The white balanced transform is computed:
CameraToXYZ_D50 = CA * CameraToXYZ
CA, above, is a chromatic adaptation matrix that maps from the white balance xy value to
the D50 white point. The recommended method for computing this chromatic adaptation
matrix is to use the linear Bradford algorithm.

 

[dkmoore]

8 minutes ago, neekon said:

Unlikely, I live in NYC now, I moved last year.  Just haven't updated my profile, although its likely ill be buying it from Leica Boston.  Its where I have my name down.

Dust can get in, in other ways than just a zoom lens.  But you are right, its less likely to happen with prime lenses, even though I have had some dusty M sensors in the past

Stores will likey only get 1-3 units this week from what I’m hearing (in US). 

[hdmesa]

6 minutes ago, tappan said:

...I misread here, somewhere, that the few people talking about this being a cropped sensor are incorrect, correct?
Thanks. Mark

Fixed it for you

[neekon]

Just now, dkmoore said:

Stores will likey only get 1-3 units this week from what I’m hearing (in US). 

Good thing I have had my name down at Leica Boston for months already for the Camera, EVF and battery
 Can also get to Leica Soho fairly early in the morning.  

[dkmoore]

2 minutes ago, neekon said:

Good thing I have had my name down at Leica Boston for months already for the Camera, EVF and battery
 Can also get to Leica Soho fairly early in the morning.  

Was mentioning for general group, not you or anyone specifically. I should not have quoted you. 

Edited January 12, 2022 by dkmoore

[neekon]

Just now, dkmoore said:

Was mentioning for general group, not you or anyone specifically. 

ok, wasn't sure.  

But yea I feel like the camera will be in short supply for months

[Tailwagger]

5 minutes ago, dkmoore said:

Was mentioning for general group, not you or anyone specifically. I should not have quoted you. 

Thats why in my case, I said 'with luck'.  I've been on the M11 list since the day I picked up the 10-R, which was the Saturday after that camera was announced, so I expect to be in the first or second batch of cameras depending on the allocations.

[dkmoore]

3 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

Thats why in my case, I said 'with luck'.  I've been on the M11 list since the day I picked up the 10-R, which was the Saturday after that camera was announced, so I expect to be in the first or second batch of cameras depending on the allocations.

I don’t think it will be like the 35 APO stock, at least I hope not!

[SrMi]

1 minute ago, dkmoore said:

I don’t think it will be like the 35 APO stock, at least I hope not!

Don’t they make one each quarter? 😂

[hdmesa]

So it begins. He says he's not going to review the M11, but then he reviews the M11 based on what he's heard. Um, ok.

 

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[shirubadanieru]

1 minute ago, hdmesa said:

So it begins. He says he's not going to review the M11, but then he reviews the M11 based on what he's heard. Um, ok.

 

Seems he’s just sour for not getting a review unit? Pointless video to be honest..lol