Would you buy an EVF only M camera? [MERGED]

[lct]

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Hard to imagine Leica throwing a rock to the Leica Society International but i don't remember who said that diplomacy is the art of telling people to go to hell in such a way that they ask for directions😇

[yae]

I would be more interested in a different kind of EVF -- one which can function in two distinct modes. 

1. The first mode would be the same as the current Visoflex EVFs, image straight from the sensor. 
2. The second mode would be akin to the Q2, with a frame line button perhaps to alternate which frame lines overlayed (in the same pairings as we have in the rangefinder OVF)

This way a feeling of "seeing beyond the frame" is achieved, which to me is one of the things that makes rangefinder shooting so great. I am not sure how Leica would manage this, or indeed if it is even possible. 

Other clear requirements would be a higher resolution (in excess of, or at least, the current 5.76mp seen in the SL cameras), with a refresh rate to match. If only (1) can be achieved, it would still be a great improvement over the current options and perhaps be enough to satiate both those who wish for an EVF M and those who prefer the traditional approach. 

An EVF model like this would require corresponding changes in the M camera of the future; however, I see this direction to be the best "middle ground" -- one which preserves the traditional rangefinder experience and offers a more robust EVF experience for those who wish to use it. With the purchase of this EVF, you can essentially have an "EVF M". 

Would love to hear what others think, if anyone has any additional ideas to add or problems they see with this path?  

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[lct]

39 minutes ago, yae said:

Would love to hear what others think

Not sure you'd like it but the least Leica brings anything new to current M cameras the more chance we have to see an EVF-M in my most humble opinion. YMMV.

[ksrhee]

Hopefully Leica does something to satisfy everyone.  Two thoughts.  First, what makes the Leica M unique or provide the unique experience for the users?  I for one is the traditional ranger finder tools and experience.  Given how much Leica costs, I could have easily bought other camera and lenses to go along with it.  This is the Leica's niche and what makes it attractive to others.  Second, it has to make the economical sense.  Leica won't make something that might cannibalize the traditional M line or create a new line with insufficient buyers.  That would be an economical suicide for a small company such as Leica. Right now, we have the add-on.  So, if people want to add the EVF option to their M, they can do so.  Anyway, nobody can read the future, and only time will tell what will happen in the future . . .

Edited March 22 by ksrhee

[ksrhee]

Interesting article.

https://petapixel.com/2024/03/22/leica-selling-l-mount-cameras-is-tougher-than-selling-a-q-or-an-m/

Perhaps Leica should stick to its niche.  Sobering thought.

[raizans]

Makes me think that maybe SL users should be more worried about the EVF-M than M users.

[sebben]

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11 hours ago, ksrhee said:

Interesting article.

https://petapixel.com/2024/03/22/leica-selling-l-mount-cameras-is-tougher-than-selling-a-q-or-an-m/

Perhaps Leica should stick to its niche.  Sobering thought.

This is because they keep bringing out old technology at up to 3x the price. 
 

Look at the SL3. The sensor is around 4 years old already. When the camera is at the end of its cycle in 4 years it will be rocking an 8 year old sensor and processor.

Look at the price of the 50mm Summicron SL ASPH. The Panasonic version of it costs around $350USD and the image quality is essentially identical. 
 

All of this amidst a backdrop of a global recession where marketing and advertising budgets are being slashed. 

Edited March 24 by sebben

[FrozenInTime]

11 hours ago, ksrhee said:

Interesting article.

https://petapixel.com/2024/03/22/leica-selling-l-mount-cameras-is-tougher-than-selling-a-q-or-an-m/

Perhaps Leica should stick to its niche.  Sobering thought.

I think propping up the SL and L-mount sets the narrative behind any decision to hold back a EVF-M.

I owned the CL and SL2-S, and a suite of L-lenses, but ultimately they did not fit, so I sold up and drifted into Fuji for EVF and AF.

Fortunately I never sold out of the M system 

Still want a EVF-M, as adapted lenses on the SL2-S were great ; just the size and ergonomics not good. 

Being able to carry a M10 or MP and a EVF-M together covers a lot of bases in a small bag.

[Jeff S]

IBIS, weather sealing and a big EVF are important offsetting benefits (to size/weight) for my use of the SL system, none of which seem likely in an EVF-based M. While the latter could serve some role, I would not want to add another M if the SL kit remained.  My goal is to reduce gear, not add.

Jeff

[Edax]

22 hours ago, letitz said:

I already did. It was called the Fuji XPro3. And it had a dual evf/ovf finder. What would you like to know? Personally I like to shoot rangefinder cameras as they were meant to be shot. I don't like pretending or posing and I always felt that way with fhe XPro. That it was pretending to be something it wasn't. 

The Fuji XPro3 is NOT a rangefinder camera...  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rangefinder_camera

[lct]

7 hours ago, letitz said:

It's not. I said it was pretending to be. I know what a rangefinder is. 

May i ask where Fuji pretended the XPro3 or any other Fuji digital camera to be, or to have, a rangefinder? Just curious.

[adan]

Well, Fuji certainly "mimicked" the dominant generic appearance and feel of rangefinder cameras - no centered viewfinder hump on the top, transparent viewfinder window, set well off-center in the top right corner (as seen from the front) for maximum RF base-length. Most of the "signals" are there, at least in the X100 and XPro series.

Below is the generic "camera" icon available from this forum's own software. Based on appearance, is it most likely 1) an SLR/DSLR, 2) a mirrorless camera, or 3) a rangefinder camera?

(And don't mention a second RF window, unless you are prepared to swear or affirm under oath that there is no second window hidden behind the top-center silvery bar - which could be transparent as well 😁 )

📷

In the insect world, taking on the appearance of something else (mimicking the shape of a far-less appetizing stick of wood or a leaf, or the appearance of a more dangerous insect, can certainly be described as "pretending." Need we mention "a wolf in sheep's clothing?"

As well being as useful - it confuses creatures who might want to consume it (and photography enthusiasts are certainly camera-consumers 🤪 ). And in a camera, serves in other ways (often more ergonomic for right-eye-dominant/right-handed photographers).

If one believes that "pretence" only exists in words - one is confused. It is certainly true that Fujifilm never actually said their RF-shaped cameras contain rangefinders (AFAIK).

But Fuji didn't need to - the number of people even on these forums who think a Leica M (with an RF installed) can easily adopt what a XPro/X100 (with no RF taking up space inside) can do - based soley on appearance - appears to be fairly high (they are also, umm, confused 🤪 ).

(images linked from wikimedia).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mimicry

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Edited March 31 by adan

[lct]

Hehe human beings let alone lawyers😱 don't behave exactly like insects so to pretend means to behave as if something is true when you know that it is not (link) for them/us😎

[ksrhee]

3 hours ago, lct said:

May i ask where Fuji pretended the XPro3 or any other Fuji digital camera to be, or to have, a rangefinder? Just curious.

I got the original Fuji X100 when it first came out (actually I still have it), and Fuji never claimed it to be a rangefinder camera or Leica knockoff.  However, you can't help but see the similarities between them.  In fact, when I took my Fuji X100 out to take pictures, people often asked if I had a Leica camera.  Of course, it is not the same.  Fuji does not use the rangefinder focus/view system, but it does have the window finder with the frame lines and parallax correction (part of the similarity).  I am sure Fuji did not mind the comparison or confusion, although I am not going to suggest whether it was intentional on their part to do it in the first place.

[adan]

1 hour ago, lct said:

human beings let alone lawyers😱 don't behave exactly like insects so to pretend means to behave as if something is true

If you are seriously confusing "external appearance" with "behavior," I think this part of the conversation is over. 👎

[lct]

22 minutes ago, adan said:

If you are seriously confusing "external appearance" with "behavior," I think this part of the conversation is over. 👎

I don't know what an internal appearance is, but I'll let you have the last word 👍

[Jeff S]

5 hours ago, lct said:

I don't know what an internal appearance is, but I'll let you have the last word 👍

But presumably you can distinguish it from the quoted “external.”

Jeff 

[lct]

The point was to know if Fuji pretended that one of their camera is or has a rangefider. As per the explanations given above, and given the definition of the verb to pretend in English, it seems pretty obvious (to me) that Fuji did not pretend anything like that.

[pop]

.. pretending (making something more important than it is)

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Hallo,

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