Leica M11 - your next camera? {MERGED}

[John Ricard]

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11 minutes ago, michaelbrenner said:

You might be able to get away with a single shot of two people having a conversation without them noticing, but it's difficult to contemplate them (or anyone else nearby) continuing to have conversation with rat-tat-tat of 10+ exposures going off... 8-)

I'm talking about paid jobs where I'm shooting let's say conference attendees having a convesation.  You if you shoot them side by side first, then over one person's shoulder and then over the second person's shoulder you are going to be hitting the buffer constantly.  But even getting 2 faces correct in the side by side version takes more than 10 frames.

Another example: I recently photographed a yoga school with my Nikon Z6. In one shot I wanted the yoga pose to be "correct".  As the person is bending, it's hard to know exactly which percent of the bend is the correct amount.  Maybe they are going to stop here.  Or maybe they are going to go another degree or two before they reach the apex of the technique.  The only way to to get the shot right is to shoot a lot of images.  If you shoot your initial 7 or 8 shots too early, you may not be able to shoot the exact moment you want a second or two later.  I used to have this problem all the time with the M9.  It got better with the M240.  The problem was basically gone with the M10, but it's back with the M10 Monochrom.  

And you have to understand how insane this is.  There are 8k video cameras capturing 36 megapixel images at the rate of 24 images per second and they can do this for like an hour.  So how is it that a Leica M can't shoot a mere 5 frames per second and maintaining that for say, 7 or 8 seconds?

Edited October 24, 2021 by John Ricard

[LocalHero1953]

32 minutes ago, John Ricard said:

My new M10 Monochrom looses a TON to "other cameras" because it only shoots 10 images before you hit the buffer.  There are many things I photograph that benefit from a larger buffer, and none of them a really action related.  If I'm just shooting 2 people having a conversation I need more than 10 shots to ensure there are more than one image where both faces look "correct" and not awkward from being photographed while they are speaking, for example.  The M9 was almost unusable for these types of shots.  The M240 was an improvement but still did not have a large enough buffer -especially when you compare it to any other digital camera on the market -even those costing under $1,000.  The M10 was perfect, but the M10 Monochrom version was a serious step backward in this department and it was noticeable to me the instant I started using it.  Oh, and I don't know NO ONE talks about the fact that these cameras shoot much slower anytime you raise the ISO. 

So how can you say these cameras lose "nothing" when compared to other cameras?

There's nothing dumber than Leica talking about the "decisive moment" when they make the only cameras I own that won't take a picture exactly when I want to take a picture.

Burst shooting is not exactly relying on the reactions and responsiveness of either the photographer or the camera.

Your conference example just shows how many different styles of photography and photographer there are. I have never used burst shooting and don't need it. I know others need it. 

My solution for the yoga class would not be burst shooting, but a better understanding of yoga, so that I know in advance when to take the shot. Dance and drama are the same.

Edited October 24, 2021 by LocalHero1953

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[NigelG]

37 minutes ago, John Ricard said:

And you have to understand how insane this is.  There are 8k video cameras capturing 36 megapixel images at the rate of 24 images per second and they can do this for like an hour.  So how is it that a Leica M can't shoot a mere 5 frames per second and maintaining that for say, 7 or 8 seconds?

Sounds like you’ve found the perfect camera for your dilemma no?

Shoot that 8k camera and the “decisive moment” is obviously now the point at which you choose when editing which one is the best-out-of-several-hundreds frame...rather than when you actually press the shutter.

This seems to me to be a direction that several manufacturer’s still cameras are heading. Spray-and-pray at previously infeasible burst frame-rates/resolution and later see what you actually captured.
 

At some point maybe all “photographs” will simply be a frame taken from a “video” recording...(discuss)

 

Edited October 24, 2021 by NigelG

[Stephen.s1]

Who really cares that a fine image was made via the spray/pray method.  Think of the great shots you've seen..  How can you tell they've been selected from the 30 images made in that decisive second...

[michaelbrenner]

1 minute ago, NigelG said:

Sounds like you’ve found the perfect camera for your dilemma no?

Shoot that 8k camera and the “decisive moment” is obviously now the point at which you choose when editing which one is the best-out-of-several-hundreds frame...rather than when you actually press the shutter.

This seems to me to be a direction that several manufacturer’s still cameras are heading. Spray-and-pray at previously infeasible burst frame-rates/resolution and later see what you actually captured.
 

At some point maybe all “photographs” will simply be a frame taken from a “video” recording...(discuss)

 

Once upon a time I used to do quite a bit of bracketing with 3 or 5-shot groups.  But, I ended up spending more time picking shots than shooting.  No more of that.

[John Ricard]

18 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

My solution for the yoga class would not be burst shooting, but a better understanding of yoga, so that I know in advance when to take the shot. Dance and drama are the same.

Hmmmm, so how exactly would I go about this.  Let's say I get an email from someone saying we'd like to hire you to take photos of our Yoga studio next Tuesday.  Should I say to them, "Well, in order to do a good job, I need to have a real understanding of Yoga.  I'm going to enroll in a yoga school this afternoon. Is it possible to do this shoot 6-9 months from now instead of next Tuesday?"  And what about other calls I might receive.  Like if a hair salon or a car mechanic shop tries to hire me for pictures, should I invest several months in really learning that craft before taking on the job, or should I do like newspaper stringers have done for decades now and pretty much shoot anything that I am assigned and figure that my general photography skills will be enough to accurately capture what is happening at that location/event.

[John Ricard]

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9 minutes ago, NigelG said:

Sounds like you’ve found the perfect camera for your dilemma no?

Shoot that 8k camera and the “decisive moment” is obviously now the point at which you choose when editing which one is the best-out-of-several-hundreds frame...rather than when you actually press the shutter.

This seems to me to be a direction that several manufacturer’s still cameras are heading. Spray-and-pray at previously infeasible burst frame-rates/resolution and later see what you actually captured.
 

At some point maybe all “photographs” will simply be a frame taken from a “video” recording...(discuss)

 

I'm not talking about anything like what you are suggesting.  No one has made a still camera that shoots at the speeds I'm describing. I'm just saying that the technology to give an M camera a proper buffer exists and there is no reason for people to excuse Leica from using the right computer in the camera.  Trying to tell yourself that the camera should be slow or that it is some badge of honor to capture an image in 9 shots rather than 90 is male/macho bravado and nothing more.

[John Ricard]

6 minutes ago, michaelbrenner said:

Once upon a time I used to do quite a bit of bracketing with 3 or 5-shot groups.  But, I ended up spending more time picking shots than shooting.  No more of that.

When I worked for BET shooting "106 & Park" I would shoot between 1,500 and 2,500 images her show taping.  Using Photo Mechanic, I was able to select the good from the bad shots, caption the images and (using Lightroom) process the images for cropping and color in just over 1 hour.  Often we would shoot 2 shows per day, so I would handle that workload 2x per day.

Edited October 24, 2021 by John Ricard

[LocalHero1953]

1 minute ago, John Ricard said:

Hmmmm, so how exactly would I go about this.  Let's say I get an email from someone saying we'd like to hire you to take photos of our Yoga studio next Tuesday.  Should I say to them, "Well, in order to do a good job, I need to have a real understanding of Yoga.  I'm going to enroll in a yoga school this afternoon. Is it possible to do this shoot 6-9 months from now instead of next Tuesday?"  And what about other calls I might receive.  Like if a hair salon or a car mechanic shop tries to hire me for pictures, should I invest several months in really learning that craft before taking on the job, or should I do like newspaper stringers have done for decades now and pretty much shoot anything that I am assigned and figure that my general photography skills will be enough to accurately capture what is happening at that location/event.

You are just working under the limitations of any commercial photographer. I am not, and I would not think of taking on a photo shoot of yoga without understanding what I was shooting.

Hence my comment about different styles of photography and photographers.

[NigelG]

31 minutes ago, John Ricard said:

I'm not talking about anything like what you are suggesting.  No one has made a still camera that shoots at the speeds I'm describing. I'm just saying that the technology to give an M camera a proper buffer exists and there is no reason for people to excuse Leica from using the right computer in the camera.  Trying to tell yourself that the camera should be slow or that it is some badge of honor to capture an image in 9 shots rather than 90 is male/macho bravado and nothing more.

I’m not saying it should be slow??
You were the one who said that there were cameras shooting 36 megapixel images at 24 frames per second...my point was that the line between still cameras and video cameras was perhaps becoming less defined.

FYI The Sony alpha 1 shoots 50.1 megapixel still images at 30fps using electronic shutter...with no evf blackout and switchable human/animal/bird tracking eye-AF!

 

 

Edited October 24, 2021 by NigelG

[bags27]

Since Steven "leaked" that the M11's sensor referenced the M9 image rendering, I've figured I'd buy it.

But yesterday, I got a Sigma DP2-Merrill off ebay. Honestly and sincerely, it is the best rendering I've ever seen in digital, short of the Hasselblad and Leica S--and maybe as good as those.

Half-sensor and 9 year old technology. ISO 400 or below; slow write; proprietary software. But the images are simply astonishing. What else matters? Work around the limitations.

It's hard to imagine how brilliant Sigma's promised FF Foveon L mount would be. 

But maybe an 11 in the hand is worth a Foveon in futureware. 😀

 

[ianman]

3 minutes ago, bags27 said:

Work around the limitations

Haven’t you heard? “Work” and “limitations” are no longer part of the vocabulary.

The Sigma is a fantastic camera, unique and incredible image quality. Congratulations on your new acquisition

 

[IkarusJohn]

3 hours ago, threeseed said:

The screen is flush on the Q2.

Leica is likely to align Q2-M11 in a number of areas to help people easily move between them.

The Q has a leaf shutter, built into a lens purpose designed for the Q camera and its sensor.  It has little to nothing in common with the M camera other than its aesthetics.

One of the many constants in the M camera design since 1954 is the register distance - the distance between the rear element and the film plane.  Unless Leica has achieved something remarkable with the sensor and LCD design, and heat management (which I’m not sure any camera maker has achieved), if the LCD is flush with the back of the camera (which would look nice), then the lens mount would need to protrude from the front of the camera (which wouldn’t).

I think that photo was taken reasonably close to the top of the camera, obscuring both the LCD and buttons, and the camera mount.  Other than a bit of hyperventilating, I’m not sure that the image tells us much.  A quick bit of photoshopping to change the M10 to M11, and ISO 64 on the dial, and it could be an M10 …  I appreciate it won’t cool the excitement one bit.

[threeseed]

19 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

It has little to nothing in common with the M camera other than its aesthetics.

They do share quite a bit e.g. Maestro 2 SoC, LCD panel, touchscreen, operating system.

And if the rumors are true then this will increase to include the batteries, battery/SD card mechanism, BT/WiFi chip, power supply, weather sealing, FOTOS app.

I'm also of the belief that they will align the back buttons and introduce a top function button. And the new Visoflex will likely come from Q2 VF.

Edited October 24, 2021 by threeseed

[IkarusJohn]

15 minutes ago, threeseed said:

They do share quite a bit e.g. Maestro 2 SoC, LCD panel, touchscreen, operating system.

And if the rumors are true then this will increase to include the batteries, battery/SD card mechanism, BT/WiFi chip, power supply, weather sealing, FOTOS app.

I'm also of the belief that they will align the back buttons and introduce a top function button. And the new Visoflex will likely come from Q2 VF.

No much to do with the LCD being flush, which is what I was responding to.

What will it have in common with the Q - form factor, both will have lenses, sensors and processors … but the M11 will have an M mount and OVF.  There, things part company very quickly.

[threeseed]

59 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

No much to do with the LCD being flush, which is what I was responding to.

Of course it does. Both the design language and the core internals will further align with the Q2.

This will include the back looking almost identical as well as the bottom.

[Erato]

4 hours ago, John Ricard said:

When I worked for BET shooting "106 & Park" I would shoot between 1,500 and 2,500 images her show taping.  Using Photo Mechanic, I was able to select the good from the bad shots, caption the images and (using Lightroom) process the images for cropping and color in just over 1 hour.  Often we would shoot 2 shows per day, so I would handle that workload 2x per day.

Go for GoPro HERO9 Black.

Leica is not a tool for delta force or mercenary, it is for...

Edited October 25, 2021 by Erato

[IkarusJohn]

2 hours ago, threeseed said:

Of course it does. Both the design language and the core internals will further align with the Q2.

This will include the back looking almost identical as well as the bottom.

Unlikely.

[adan]

It's always fun to watch the "armchair CEOs" try to out-think Dr. Kaufmann. Never works.

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Hallo,

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[Datsch]

Just to clarify, some sales estimates:

M60       600

M-D        1500

M10-D   2000

So we see a clear upward trend in interest and demand for the screenless M over the years.