Which film Leica to start with? Need your inputs in this jungle.

[Borna]

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I started shooting digital Leicas since a couple of years now and have been enjoying it. A while ago I started to think that it would be fun to start with analog, this made me try out to see if I would like it - meaning, I got myself an Minolta Freedom Escort P&S for around 25-30 bucks, couple of rolls of film, batch of chemicals, my grandfathers old Agfa Rondinax 35U daylight dev tank, also tried the Paterson tank, cheap epson flatbed scanner, got the trays, the enlarger, the lamp etc. Slow and behold, suddenly I have a fully functional amateur dark room and home dry lab for less than 150 bucks sourced during april-august , all of this to see, is it for me or not? Well I am so far having a blast and I am leaning and enjoying all of it, so finally now I have decided to go for the analog Leica experience. 

So, my question is, how long is a thread?

I have decided against M1, M2 and M3 and M5, however the M4 is very interesting and price wise a good option to learn to use the tool properly. Although I wish to have a black chrome model but I think that is bit too expensive. Then there is the M4-2 and M4-P, I am not sure what to think about these models. I know all about them, but something buggs me off. Help me out here please? 

Then we have the M6 which basically is an M4-P with light meter, but is it really worth 1000$+ more?

Then there is an M7, which is slight more expensive than the M6, reminds me of my Leica M8 in terms of operation when I look at videos on youtube. 

Then there is M-P which 'basically' is an modern M6 but painted black? 

Then at last there is the M-A in lovely black chrome, which is basically an modern M4?! 

I have held the M4 in couple of occasions in a Leica Frankfurt and pushed it around a bit, same with an MP. But still, I am not sure. What shall I do? Is the M4 a good camera to start with or is it better to go for the M4-P? M4-2? M6? I could stretch for an used MP/M-A if needed. I have even found a decent priced M7 which is at the same price of an mid-ranged priced M6. Certain things I like with the M4 but I am not sure if it is the right model to start with.

And at last, I am most likely to sell my M-P 240 with all of its accessories to 'upgrade' myself to an decent film Leica, thus why I am asking about all of them. Arghhh

Thanks for your inputs. 

[a.noctilux]

I'd say begin with one M, either one is fine.

Color/meter/other things not photographic is super to have the feature,

but if photography is the most important, either M is good enough.

In my way I use happily M-A, but when I take my M4, the results are the same.

Metered Ms are very practical of course but lack the "final feeling" of freedom.

 

as side note, M4 is more comfort with plastic wind lever and the nice lever to rewind.

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Edited August 8, 2023 by a.noctilux

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[frame-it]

An M?

i would go with a nice CLA'd leica iiif, a joy to use, much smaller in size, hundreds of lenses available and once serviced runs like a precision machine.

[Sandokan]

It all comes down to how old a camera do you want. A MP is new, fully manual, with a meter. M7 only works with batteries, but I love getting the exposure almost correct without thinking, as opposed to using a meter and manually setting the exposure. 

As a shooter of 50mm and 90mm lenses - I love my M3. 

Shooting a 40mm lens - I love the Leica CL. 

The M7 is used with 28, 50 and 75mm lenses (0.72x viewfinder). 

Don't forget the Zeiss Ikon which has a better viewfinder than the M7. 

[madNbad]

Currently, the two M cameras I own are a M4 and a M4-2. Both have been serviced by DAG Camera and both are a joy to use. The M4 is from 1967 and the M4-2 from 1978 so not too surprising a good cleaning and adjustment made a difference. The weak point of both the M4-2 and M4-P is the flash block. The plastic Leica used so the camera could have a hot shoe is fairly brittle making it easy to accidentally pull out one of the PC syncs. There is a forum member who 3D prints replacement blocks. I had one installed when the M4-2 was in for service.

All M cameras from the M4 forward have the rapid loading system. Drop in the film, pull the leader across and slip it in the take up tulip. Replace the baseplate, wind twice and your camera is ready. It only takes about thirty seconds to load one.

The M4 was hand built and uses mostly brass gears. It’s a very smooth camera to use. The change from the post to the angled rewind crank makes rewinding the film much faster and easier on your fingers. It also has the condenser in the rangefinder which reduces the chance of the finder flaring white. The M4 was also the first to use modern adhesives instead of balsam to assemble the rangefinder, reducing the chance of separation. It also has a vulcanite covering instead of a composite product. A great camera. Find one in good condition and enjoy it.

The M4-2 was the first M camera to use both steel gears and a new production process. It lost the condenser in the rangefinder assembly as well as the self timer. The top plate was still brass and after the early teething problems were corrected, the M4-2 is an incredibly tough and reliable camera. Its a no frills Leica and I’m glad I finally bought one.

You’ll get plenty of advice. Good luck with your search.

[Lux50]

The M4-P would be a good choice. I enjoy mine and I say this as a very long time owner of a chrome M4 (since 1972) and M4 BP (since 1981). I have had my M4-P since about 2010 or 2011 & actually use it more. I have an M-P Safari and would not sell it to replace it with a Leica film camera. Recommend getting an M film camera “in addition to” your M-P 240.

[hansvons]

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Either one is great. But the M6’s light meter should not be underestimated. I own also an M4-P, as you said essentially an M6 without the meter. I prefer the M6 due to the meter. In a pinch, it's faster. Speed is crucial to me, you might think differently.

Regardless of what camera you buy, only buy one with a recent CLA done by a reputable technician. 

If you want to use a flash, cameras older than the M4-P don't have a hotshoe if I recall correctly. The M4-P flash connectors should be taped. 

I’d get a black one. It's less distracting. I also tape the red dot. Subjects tend to look at it. Not good for my kind of work. YMMV, of course.

Edited August 8, 2023 by hansvons

[hepcat]

The bottom line is that any of the M line will feel and work similarly enough that it really makes no difference at all, as long as the shutter speeds are reasonably close to spec.   The M4 and variants (M4-2 and M4-P) M6, and M7 later use a quick-load spool and earlier bodies use a "standard" spool.  The rewind crank/spool option is really not that big of a deal.  The M-A and MP will cost you an arm and a leg, but are likely less in need of an immediate overhaul, but that's always a crap shoot anyway.  There are some differences in finders.  I don't think anyone can tell you which model is best for you.    I have had a half-dozen M4s over the years, an M2, three M3s and I currently have an M3 and my first and only M5 (1973 three lug) of which I am becoming totally enamored after a trip to Don Goldberg for a complete overhaul.

[Bobonli]

Do you want or need a meter? Do you want more modern or are you willing to go back into the M4 range? Does RF magnification matter to you?
 

I had an M6 years ago. I didn’t really give it a chance, fell more in love with digital and sold it. I just bought an M4-P about 2 months ago. The price was right and I didn’t need a meter. I wasn’t willing to pay the premium for an M6 knowing I’d gone down that road once before, and ended up selling it at a loss. I use a small Sekonic meter. I’m at the point that I’m usually within a stop by just guessing at the light. I’m not shooting sports, so speed is not critical, if it were I might want the built in meter. I got a mint M4-P with the original packaging significantly cheaper than an M6 and am happy with that decision. As a general rule, I prefer to save money on the camera (a box that collects light) and spend it on the glass. I’m here for the glass and the form factor of the system not necessarily the camera. If I were completely unsure/ hesitant I’d buy an Ikon to save the most on the camera and get nice glass. 

[earleygallery]

Choice depends on budget, what frame lines you want and whether or not you can do without a built in meter (and if you want AE there's only one choice).

Make your choice based on your criteria.

[jakontil]

Get an MP and be done searching 😀

[snommis]

If you shoot 50 and up get an M3. Best viewfinder and my M3 is smoother than my MP. MP if you want a meter but you can add a Leicameter to an M3 and you are good. If you want black the MP. I had a M6 TTL and it was great but I would worry about parts for it compared to an M3 or the MP. you can find nice M3 for not a crazy price and for peace of mind a few hundred will get it CLAd. I’ve got my M3 with Ye right now and am looking forward to getting it back for using another 20 years. 

[spydrxx]

I've stated elsewhere I had an M4 for over 30 years and loved it. I got suckered into buying an M6TTL thinking an internal meter would be great, but ended up hating it. These days I've reverted to an M2 and a bunch of Barnacks. I still think about that M4, but don't really see the user or cost benefit over the M2. but make your own choice and enjoy it.

[Ko.Fe.]

I have M4-2 and it was under very heavy use from 2015 to 2018.  It went for repairs, not CLA. It needed and still needs parts.

I had briefly M4-P and its cluttered framelines never impressed me.

Most impressive film M I had was M3 D'S ELC with original seal of Midland and rusted take in spool.

It was working without any issues in 2017-2018. And it's build quality was incredible.

If I ever step into film for real again, it is going to be pre M4-2 one.

I also liked goggled Summaron in M4-2 50 framelines, gave good space for street photography.

 

[Greenhilltony]

Before my recent purchase of an M4 silver chrome, I have been shooting with an M10-P for five months and have figured out my preference to 35mm lens, other than the 28 and 50 I heavily used with my film SLRs. So I am sure I feel it home to use a model without the 28mm lines, so it comes down to M2 and M4. I prefer the speed loading mechanism and the rewind crank of M4. And most importantly I found a great deal of a just CLAed M4 in my local shop so I immediately jumped onto the M4 wagon.

Now I feel the viewfinder of M4, though also 0.72x as the M10-P, offers a “wider” feel of the 35mm lines and it is very comfortable. I’m not accustomed to the smaller speed dial yet, and was a bit surprised finding it is one-way so I can’t turn to 1/1000 from B lol.

[dpitt]

16 hours ago, hepcat said:

... The rewind crank/spool option is really not that big of a deal.   ...

If you need to rewind in freezing temperatures, your fingers will not agree. It is the one thing I hate about my M2 and M3, and love on my M4 and M5. If you never change film outside, it is not painful, but still takes considerably more time.

So I would recommend the M4 style of rewind mechanism, and then choose according to my need for frames. Regarding Summicron 40C. I love this lens, and it is hard to use with the 50mm frame it brings up on anything but the CL, but you can easily make it bring up 35mm frames and that makes it easy to use on any M.

Built in meter is a nice to have, but can be worked around. First aid can be a metering app on your smartphone, hot shoe meters, or sunny 16. If you take a digital M also, just set both on the same ISO and copy the shutter time.

Edited August 9, 2023 by dpitt

[Kwesi]

18 hours ago, Borna said:

And at last, I am most likely to sell my M-P 240 with all of its accessories to 'upgrade' myself to an decent film Leica, thus why I am asking about all of them. Arghhh

Get the M7. 
you are already used to working with a modern M i.e the way the metering works, the aperture priority mode, the Center weighted metering,  the the direction to turn the shutter to use the meter, etc. this way you are basically swapping a sensor for film in your workflow. 

[250swb]

It’s easier to grade down at a later date than start worrying all over again about grading up after you’ve bought your first film M. So get your first with all the bells and whistles, a meter, all the frame lines, and then you have the full datum points. Use it and it will probably be brilliant. 
 

If later you do think you want a simpler camera it’s easy to test this, take the battery out and only use a smaller range of focal length lenses and you’ll see if it works for you. You can then sell the original camera or keep it and buy another simpler body. (This is how people seem to accumulate Leica’s)

So I think the options are an MP or an M6 and this isn’t to say anything else is a bad camera. If you want to go full retro and bathe in the perceived glory (and limitations) of an M3, M2, etc. I think it’s something to do when you are already using a modern film Leica.
 

 

[otto.f]

M7 is a nice and friendly work horse, but in the end you’ll love your M4 more. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[M10R]

Besides operations, most film cameras are similar.

I chose M4 15 years ago cos:
- I wear glasses, so don't want M3
- M2 is fine but I want a more modern film rewind crank
- I don't want to be bothered by a dead meter (in the future), so don't think about M6/M6TTL/M7
- I can estimate exposure, so I don't need any film M with built-in meter (although I have a good spot meter, but I prefer estimating exposure when shooting on Tri-x, so I don't use the spot meter with film M)
- M4 framelines are simple and enough for my use
- I want a vintage camera and vintage lens, so I can experience 60 years ago shooting feelings and get old days image quality

Edited August 9, 2023 by M10R