Why I will not be getting a M11...

[SrMi]

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8 hours ago, otto.f said:

I. I’m not interested in 60Mp

II. The menu is about as complicated as the SL and I hate that, too many options, especially with the filesizes. The M was keep it simple, wasn‘t it?
III. Not at all interested in ISO’s that go towards 100.000, it’s a fetish in the market these days. Especially while the noise of this camera becomes only nice  at higher ISO’s. I was just so happy with the beautiful noise of the M10R at max 3200. 
IV. I have a certain aversion against an electronic shutter on an M. The whole joy and craft of a silent mechanical shutter is gone with the wind, we are losing a defining trait of M photography here. Not in the result part, but in the joy of working with it  

V. I do not trust the exposure metering from the sensor, it leads to delay of catching the right moment. And I still have to see whether people start complaining about it here, or not. 
VI. The weight is a real bonus, but indeed, as somebody said somewhere, it’s a real question whether that’s a plus with heavier Summiluxes - and 60Mp…

Just my opinion:

II. Working with M10-R and M11 simultaneously, I did not find the new UI complicated but changed positively. The quick access to functions via the status screen is a significant UI advantage.
IV. The electronic shutter is only an option for those situations that the mechanical shutter cannot handle (sound and speed). The joy and craft of the mechanical shutter is still in the M11.
V. The delay has been measured. It i snot noticeable. There are a lot of complaints by people who do not own M11.

[SrMi]

2 hours ago, relms said:

Send me your address, and I will camp out beneath your 34th floor window.  

The camera tossing event has been postponed indefinitely. neekon is fond of his M11.

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[neekon]

6 hours ago, wizard said:

Each and every point you criticize was known on the release date of the M11. Why on earth did you buy one in the first place if you already knew you didn't like what you would get?

Because I had extremely limited time at the store when i went to test it on launch day and took a chance on buying one.  I knew i could always return or sell it if i wasnt happy.   
Yes i had concerns and issues about a few things on the spec sheet, but no amount of limited testing in a store is going to allow you to realize if it is for you or not, actually using the camera in situations where you would use the camera will. 

And i didnt know at the time if i would like it or be able to live with it or hate it.   I have grown to deal with the things i dont love as it makes my images better, and the images are better in general than my previous Ms. 

Have you never tried something in store and decided to buy it to give it further testing?  
 

4 hours ago, relms said:

Send me your address, and I will camp out beneath your 34th floor window.  

Haha, no longer being thrown out the window, keeping it

 

 

[IkarusJohn]

16 hours ago, Artin said:

Gordon very well said thank you. I sit here and read all the negative bickering and it just drives me nuts. But the truth is everyone that voices their opinion on why they will not buy an M11 are just trying to justify the fact that it’s a lot of money for a camera that most of us are using for a hobby and pleasure.

I was first in line to get mine, dropped 13,500.00 cnd dollars and I think it’s the best M camera Leica has ever made. Did I need it ? No. I just wanted it. The fact is that anyone that can open their wallet already committed to it, all the rest are just pondering. The M11 is as good as it it gets 

No one is being critical of your purchase, Arthur.  For myself, I’m happy for you. 

Every new Leica gets picked over here, and not everyone has a shop nearby that has new Leicas to try; so we endeavour to understand what the improvements are and to get our heads around what Leica is doing.  That’s not unreasonable.

What is unusual about the M cameras is that people still love the first version (the M3) - each new version is examined to see if it improves the camera or dilutes what made it unique.  New and old cameras and lenses are bought and appreciated by people with this passion (rather than most professional photographers who need tools which meet their needs).  I am not on the upgrade cycle (of course each new iteration of the M will be better than the last - Leica would have gone bust long ago if its new M camera was worse than the outgoing model); my M cameras will be used ‘til they can no longer be repaired.

But, that doesn’t change the interest in where Leica is going with its new models.  Is the new camera a refinement, or is it heading in a new direction?  I loved my M9P and I love my M10-D.  Looking at the M11, I like the removal of the baseplate, but I’m not sure that permanent live view and 60MP are positive developments.  I could afford an M11 (I’d trade some of my existing gear), but it’s not an upgrade which I feel compelled to make.  I would be more interested if they had kept the shutter metering (metering doesn’t bother me much) and improved sensor performance without going to 60MP - that seems pointless to me.

Enjoy your M11, and I hope you will continue to share your experiences using it.

[otto.f]

6 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

No one is being critical of your purchase, Arthur.  For myself, I’m happy for you. 

Every new Leica gets picked over here,

Indeed, I just stated why it's thus far not attractive for me. Nevertheless, I've got the impression that the controversy about the latest M is now more pronounced than when the M10 appeared on stage.

[Gobert]

I think that’s why the M10 was a huge step forward in the M “analoge” experience in a digital body, while the M11 is the next step into the digital experience. One of the reasons why I am not in a hurry to buy one.

[neekon]

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21 minutes ago, Artin said:

dam it .. now I have to drive all the way back to Toronto from Boston 

You still wouldve been in teh wrong city, i dont live in Boston anymore.  I moved recently, just havent updated my profile 

[bernstein1234]

In my country, the demand for M10-R BP has increased instead. There are some out there would still prefer the baseplate for nostalgic reasons and feeling that 40mp is enough. There's also tests which seemed to favour M10-R skin color as the color profiles for M11 had yet to reach maturity stage.

I'll keep my M10-R BP indefinitely and probably look at a M11 BP if it ever exist. Still, no IBIS.

Edited January 20, 2022 by bernstein1234

[IkarusJohn]

3 hours ago, Artin said:

I will share my experience with all of you what I think it is the right direction on almost all fronts, 

As far as the day to day operation of the Camera, not much has changed from the M9.. it is as it has always been a rangefinder at par with the M10R

Off the sensor metering is no different then of the shutter metering, only more accurate.

the camera is much faster in turning on and operation then all digital M cameras 

The battery life is better then all digital M cameras before 

much less clutter in the back then all digital ms before 

with 60 MPX of resolution the buffer is as good as the M10R and much better then all the predecessors 

the dynamic range is higher then all before 

The ISO performance is better then all before 

the menu is simpler then all before 

the LCD is better resolution then all before 

live view black out is much less then all before 

Black body is the lightest of all digital M cameras 

shutter sound is much better then most digital Ms about the same as the M10P 

The EVF is better then all before 

say goodbye to all the ND filters no need now you can use your Summilux and Noctilux lenses in daylight wide open 

I can not think of one single thing that any of the previous Digital M bodies did better than the M11, If someone can point it out I am all ears.

 

All good reasons, Arthur. I might look at the M11-M when it comes out. But to be honest, I’m happy with my M9P based Monochrom. 

[earleygallery]

I will not be buying an M11, because I can't afford one.

[M Journey]

3 hours ago, Artin said:

I will share my experience with all of you what I think it is the right direction on almost all fronts, 

As far as the day to day operation of the Camera, not much has changed from the M9.. it is as it has always been a rangefinder at par with the M10R

Off the sensor metering is no different then of the shutter metering, only more accurate.

the camera is much faster in turning on and operation then all digital M cameras 

The battery life is better then all digital M cameras before 

much less clutter in the back then all digital ms before 

with 60 MPX of resolution the buffer is as good as the M10R and much better then all the predecessors 

the dynamic range is higher then all before 

The ISO performance is better then all before 

the menu is simpler then all before 

the LCD is better resolution then all before 

live view black out is much less then all before 

Black body is the lightest of all digital M cameras 

shutter sound is much better then most digital Ms about the same as the M10P 

The EVF is better then all before 

say goodbye to all the ND filters no need now you can use your Summilux and Noctilux lenses in daylight wide open 

I can not think of one single thing that any of the previous Digital M bodies did better than the M11, If someone can point it out I am all ears.

 

This is a pretty good list of the upgrades.  If this was Canon, Nikon, or Sony and the new camera was only 2.5-4k, upgrading would be a no brainer.  9k is pretty hefty to upgrade with no trade in, and trading in a m10 or below and paying 4k +  more is also a big ask.  The m11 is no doubt a good upgrade over the m10, for those that need or want the upgrades.  Hopefully in a few years when used m11s are readily available it will be easier to trade a used m for a used m11.  And for those that plan to skip the 11 and are waiting for the 12, that camera will just be even more amazing.  At least with the m11, if you are paying a premium price, you are getting a premium digital camera with all the bells and whistles (minus IBIS) that a rangefinder camera launched in 2022 should have. 

 

 

[M Journey]

 

There is hope that if Leica launches a m11 with a SL2-S sensor it could be a cheaper camera much like how the Sl2-S is cheaper than the SL2.  I don't see them doing this if sales remain good though, the SL2-S sensor isn't better than the M11 sensor.  Just gives them an avenue of offering a cheaper alternative if the market requires it.

Honestly, a 6k Leica M11-s where the only change is the sensor (and tri-resolution mode and corresponding IQ from any sensor downgrade) would be very attractive.  6k is a lot easier to justify for most Leica enthusiasts and a much easier trade-in path.

 

[IkarusJohn]

Better spent on a new lens.

From the reviews, the M10-R has a fabulous sensor.  The simplified M11 could do well with an upgrade on that sensor, and strip out a lot of what people dislike here on the M11 - make it in black paint and include a roll of wet and dry, and it will sell out in minutes ...

[Jeff S]

5 hours ago, Artin said:

I will share my experience with all of you what I think it is the right direction on almost all fronts, 

As far as the day to day operation of the Camera, not much has changed from the M9.. it is as it has always been a rangefinder at par with the M10R

Off the sensor metering is no different then of the shutter metering, only more accurate.

the camera is much faster in turning on and operation then all digital M cameras 

The battery life is better then all digital M cameras before 

much less clutter in the back then all digital ms before 

with 60 MPX of resolution the buffer is as good as the M10R and much better then all the predecessors 

the dynamic range is higher then all before 

The ISO performance is better then all before 

the menu is simpler then all before 

the LCD is better resolution then all before 

live view black out is much less then all before 

Black body is the lightest of all digital M cameras 

shutter sound is much better then most digital Ms about the same as the M10P 

The EVF is better then all before 

say goodbye to all the ND filters no need now you can use your Summilux and Noctilux lenses in daylight wide open 

I can not think of one single thing that any of the previous Digital M bodies did better than the M11, If someone can point it out I am all ears.

 

I’m not going to buy the M11, and only use RF viewing, but another benefit for M11 users is the stabilized LV/EVF, which should improve the viewing/focusing experience when handholding for macro, long lenses, etc compared to prior models.

Jeff

[Tailwagger]

5 hours ago, Artin said:

I can not think of one single thing that any of the previous Digital M bodies did better than the M11, If someone can point it out I am all ears.

 They cost less at intro. That's about it, AFAICT. 

There's really no point in arguing much about the camera with folks that don't have one. There are plenty of reasons, great and small to pass on the M11.  But for those intent on sitting on the sidelines, don't kid yourself, the specs don't begin to tell the story.  The thing that amuses me in this sort of discussion is that all too often the detractors have so little self awareness on the subject of value when it comes to the M. Try explaining to your buddy with an A1 why you spent half a BMW on an M10-D with a 50 APO back in 2020. Point being that for those who already own an M at the moment, it should be clear that neither the specs nor the price of entry can adequately describe the experience let alone the true worth of the thing. It shouldn't be that difficult to accept that the same is true with the M11. 

[Tailwagger]

54 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Better spent on a new lens.

True. I suspect that will be the fate of my 10-R, if I can find a 35 APO. 

[david strachan]

2 hours ago, earleygallery said:

I will not be buying an M11, because I can't afford one.

James, 

I think that sums it up for most of us...simple and succinct..  

[raizans]

2 hours ago, earleygallery said:

I will not be buying an M11, because I can't afford one.

Legend.

[MikeMyers]

4 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

for those who already own an M at the moment, it should be clear that neither the specs nor the price of entry can adequately describe the experience let alone the true worth of the thing. It shouldn't be that difficult to accept that the same is true with the M11

I've been following all this for ages, and if I were to buy an M11 it would be in addition to my M10, not instead.  I've gone over the list of improvements, but that's not enough to persuade me to spend almost $10,000 to get a newer camera that will mostly do the same things I'm doing now.  If I was still working, I'd probably find a way to afford it, but I'm retired.  I realize how excellent the M11 is, but I know from the past several years how excellent the M10 already is.

Please explain what the "true worth of the thing.  I would be taking the same photos I take now, usually at the same resolution.  It may have a bit more dynamic range, but my D750 already has that, and I'm now shooting with the M10.  All my digital M cameras are black, and the additional mass from the brass top seems to help stabilize the camera.  I'm not very excited about aluminum.  The electronic shutter would be nice I guess, at times, but I doubt I would ever use it.  If I want high-tech, and the ultimate, I'd be more inclined to buy the Z9 for almost half the price....   except over time, all the Nikon flagships drop a lot in price, where Leica cameras hold their value.  

With the M8, I wanted one badly, but waited for the M8.2.  Then I spent years debating whether or not to get the M10.  It was well worth the wait.

The M11 has many fancy new features and improvements, but I'm not sure I need, and maybe even want, most of them.  I will go to Leica Store Miami and check it out in person, but buying it would be an uphill battle in many ways.  For me.  Others might benefit much more than I would, because they would see the advantages in the new features for them, something I just don't see.....

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[Tailwagger]

1 minute ago, Artin said:

It is kind of crazy. Nikon Z9 costs 6500.00 dollars CND. The M11 is 11,500.00 cnd.  That is nearly double 

Give it a year, maybe less. It will be $9695 US or more. That's even crazier.