Why I will not be getting a M11...

[Jeff S]

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17 minutes ago, bandrews said:

😂 I'm not sure that was the (whole) reason he got the boot.

Of course not…but you (virtually) laughed…

Jeff

[Tailwagger]

6 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

So, apparently the M11 is an improvement in all respects, which is great.

However, I don’t need 60MP, I don’t really have any interest in pixel binning, I don’t see any point in cropping in-camera... 

I'd reserve judgment for a while. As was the case with the 10-R, the added pixels, while useful, really didn't define the differences to the 10. Likewise, as we explore just what the new camera is capable of, I don't think it will be defined by the 60 Mpx part of the specification. It's certainly truly that the laws of diminishing returns is in play here, but one of the ore important aspects of the M11 for me has been the impression that older glass fares far better in a BSI context.  The tonality is just a little different with the M11 over any previous digital M which may or may not appeal depending on your sensibilities. And in general, the camera is a heck of a lot faster operationally. For those with a recent R, the jump is probably less compelling, but over an original M, there is a pretty wide gulf in capability.

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[IkarusJohn]

26 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

I'd reserve judgment for a while. As was the case with the 10-R, the added pixels, while useful, really didn't define the differences to the 10. Likewise, as we explore just what the new camera is capable of, I don't think it will be defined by the 60 Mpx part of the specification. It's certainly truly that the laws of diminishing returns is in play here, but one of the ore important aspects of the M11 for me has been the impression that older glass fares far better in a BSI context.  The tonality is just a little different with the M11 over any previous digital M which may or may not appeal depending on your sensibilities. And in general, the camera is a heck of a lot faster operationally. For those with a recent R, the jump is probably less compelling, but over an original M, there is a pretty wide gulf in capability.

True.  I do like a lot of what I read - losing the baseplate, 64 ISO as base, and other improvements in the sensor.  When I say I'm not interested in 60MP, I mean that literally - I'm not interested.  It could be 24MP or 100MP, provided the camera works smoothly and I get good files (without crippling size), I don't mind.  The X1D2 50c files were fine to handle.  MP count and resolution haven't been an issue for a long time for what I do.

And just to head off the inevitable comment, I do my cropping with lens selection.  I see little point in buying into the M system with its wonderful variety of lenses if you're just going to crop the good bits.  It's not a style of photography I have any interest in.

I will look again at the black paint version of the M11-P, or better the M11-D if it's made, if I can afford it ...

[grahamc]

Like many of us I currently shoot a digital m (M10-D) and a film m.  I like how they both use the same metering system and that the shooting experience is more challenging than my previous system (A7Riv).

I don’t doubt that the M11 would help me take better photos, especially in challenging conditions eg contrasting light.  I frequently get under exposed images in M10 from my user errors / inexperience with the spot metering, as others have also mentioned. 

Since I have the Sony though, I’m uncertain if I want my M experience to be as easy just yet.  This may be because I have the Sony + m adaptor to pick up whenever I need that tech (and 60 ish MP).  It may also be because the errors that I make with my digital M help me to take better film photos.   My situation may be different from many that have used spot metering for decades and have mastered it, but I kind of like it that my digital and film M share these user experiences.    
 

I know of course I could put an M11 in spot mode but it does seem like a lot of tech in an M for me, as an A7riv owner who has that as an alternate to the more challenging M experience.  I like how I need to think about everything more with my M.  Whereas with the Sony everything was more or less able to be rescued in post or edited to taste after letting the multi metering and DR capabilities do it’s thing.  There’s absolutely no doubt that the files I get from that camera are better, but perhaps a less satisfying experience overall for me personally.  

So I’m undecided but having used the Sony I can appreciate how easily (relatively) the M11 will make spectacular images in challenging light.
 

Maybe I just like to make things difficult as my 10 doesn’t have a screen either  

Certainly the Leica system needs to evolve and it’s a huge step forward for M generally - not to mention that these features are just expected by the camera market in general so will help gain new followers and continuation of the system we love for a long time in the future. I’m  definitely not shutting the gate in getting one at some point but feel I need to do my time on the classic learning curve first, which I am thoroughly enjoying. I also haven’t used the Sony since buying my M, but there’s a few shoots that I probably should have .  

 

Edited January 16, 2022 by grahamc

[Jeff S]

15 minutes ago, grahamc said:

Like many of us I currently shoot a digital m (M10-D) and a film m.  I like how they both use the same metering system and that the shooting experience is more challenging than my previous system (A7Riv).

I don’t doubt that the M11 would help me take better photos, especially in challenging conditions eg contrasting light.  I frequently get under exposed images in M10 from my user errors / inexperience with the spot metering, as others have also mentioned. 

Since I have the Sony though, I’m uncertain if I want my M experience to be as easy just yet.  This may be because I have the Sony + m adaptor to pick up whenever I need that tech (and 60 ish MP).  It may also be because the errors that I make with my digital M help me to take better film photos.   My situation may be different from many that have used spot metering for decades and have mastered it, but I kind of like it that my digital and film M share these user experiences.    
 

I know of course I could put an M11 in spot mode but it does seem like a lot of tech in an M for me, as an A7riv owner who has that as an alternate to the more challenging M experience.  I like how I need to think about everything more with my M.  Whereas with the Sony everything was more or less able to be rescued in post or edited to taste after letting the multi metering and DR capabilities do it’s thing.  There’s absolutely no doubt that the files I get from that camera are better, but perhaps a less satisfying experience overall for me personally.  

So I’m undecided but having used the Sony I can appreciate how easily (relatively) the M11 will make spectacular images in challenging light.
 

Maybe I just like to make things difficult as my 10 doesn’t have a screen either  

Certainly the Leica system needs to evolve and it’s a huge step forward for M generally - not to mention that these features are just expected by the camera market in general so will help gain new followers and continuation of the system we love for a long time in the future. I’m  definitely not shutting the gate in getting one at some point but feel I need to do my time on the classic learning curve first, which I am thoroughly enjoying   

 

I know you’re using the term spot metering loosely, to differentiate from matrix/field type metering across the full image.  But just in case you haven’t seen the typical M center weighted metering pattern, you might be surprised how much area it covers; not anything like typical spot metering.  This old FAQ provides an example…

 

Jeff

[Guest]

20 hours ago, jrichie said:

If I had a choice, I would have an M11 with EVF only. In fact I would have bought it on the spot yesterday, if it existed.

so Leica lost a sale. 
 

The point of the SL2 I was trying to make is that the EVF is superb, and the whole M lens experience with it so far is great. I would much prefer an M body however and like @Mahesh was always attracted to Leica for the small bodies and manual M lenses.

I also believe that Leica would sell more cameras if they just had a rangefinder M and EVF M rather than this M11 hybrid thing. I would be paying for a rangefinder which I don’t want anymore and a clunky visoflex, which are the core reasons why I won’t be buying.
 

For me it is just have a few lines of cameras - S / M / Q full frame only and nail options for each user, at a high quality level.

I hate EVF cameras  but love the clear viewfinder of the M , i believe the rangefinder M easily out sells the SL camera.

I disagree that they would sell more cameras if the had an EVF M .

But the EVF subject has already been done to death anyway.

[grahamc]

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19 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

I know you’re using the term spot metering loosely, to differentiate from matrix/field type metering across the full image.  But just in case you haven’t seen the typical M center weighted metering pattern, you might be surprised how much area it covers; not anything like typical spot metering.  This old FAQ provides an example…

 

Jeff

Thanks Jeff. Yes was using the term relatively loosely although I do sometimes forget how much it covers . Thanks for the reminder and for the link 

Edited January 16, 2022 by grahamc

[Mahesh]

On 1/16/2022 at 1:00 AM, steve 1959 said:

Which model makes more money for the leica business out of the M series and the SL series do you think?  

They are not similar in any respect, too many variables to compare. There are more differences than just the focussing mechanism.  

M is petit and SL is a brick, forcing to use L-M adapter as well. Quality of M lenses will not  be the same on SL.

 

Besides, comparing the status quo does not mean anything about how the future sales will do. Apple brought mp3 players when no such market existed.

[martinot]

On 1/14/2022 at 7:21 AM, Stevejack said:

I know you weren't directing this at me, but the problem is that the camera can't be used in the same way as the M10R. On the M11, you can't fire off a shot without the shutter closing, opening, closing again and then re-opening.     On the M10R when in manual shutter mode, the shutter only had to open / close.

Even if the difference is imperceptible in terms of shutter lag, the sound that the shutter makes when it takes a shot has a lot to do with the user experience. 

Lots of us hated using the M10 cameras in live-view mode because it just sounded slow... rather than a 'snick' when you took a picture, you heard the shutter close, open, close, and open again. The M11 has apparently improved things here, but for those of us who hated the M10 live-view shutter sound we're a bit put off by it.

So it is mainly a sound issue as I understand it?

 

[Edax]

19 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

It's certainly truly that the laws of diminishing returns is in play here, but one of the ore important aspects of the M11 for me has been the impression that older glass fares far better in a BSI context.

This!

[Reciprocity]

20 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

 

However, I don’t need 60MP,
 

  My M10-D is looking like a long term user …

I think this is what is so great about where the digital M has landed in the past 4 years or so. 
I do occasionally need 60MP like resolution, but not in the form of an M RF operation. I have medium format and it’s more precise workflow for that.

If I really need to and because M lenses are so sharp, I can easily take a 24MP file from my M10-P and use Adobe’s enhance feature and get to very large sizes.

But to your point about your M10-D being a long term user, it’s good we are there with Leica M digital cameras, that was not always the case. I suppose I will try an M11 at some point but all I really need or want is my M10-P, so maybe I move to an M10-R in a year or so to keep in the supported camera service window longer. I don’t buy Leica products new so it could work out that I get an M11 in 2-3 years in the same fashion.
 

If nothing else, the M11 shows that the digital M is truly a mature product.

Edited January 17, 2022 by Reciprocity

[setuporg]

NeverM11s: as you succumb one by one, please post your M11 pics here.

[neekon]

So as many of you know, i was fairly vocal about my concerns and issues with the M11, primarily in this thread.   I stated that i was going to give it a chance this weekend and see how i felt.  Here are my thoughts. 
I still think that the shutter clunk at startup is just a poor design.  i know other cameras do it(also a poor design).  i know the startup time is about the same, so its not slowing anything down.   However, i just do not like it.  I had my dad, who is not the most tech savvy, listen and compare the M10R and M11, and he couldn't really hear or tell the difference.  It was a non-issue to him.   I, however, cannot not hear it, so its a bit of an annoyance.   I am learning to live with it. 

On to the second point, the shutter in the rangefinder shooting mode.  With the M10R/M10 series i thought the shutter in live view was terrible, the one in the M11 is growing on me, while i still prefer the one in the M10P/R/M/D series, the M11 is not nearly as bad as the M10 series in live view.  Interestingly, i find myself using live view more with the M11 than i did with the previous cameras.  I still hope for a EFCS, or M11P with curtain metering(for the option). I do not find the M11 shutter to be much of an issue after some use.  

The new metering mode is actually kind of nice, and a large improvement over the curtain metering.  I do find the exposures of my shots to be easier to predict, and overall jsut better.  
So that is a welcome change. 

The sensor is the biggest improvement.   The M10R was a special sensor for the M, IMHO.  It had a color and fidelity that the previous sensors didnt have.  It almost felt like a step up to a modern sensor tech for Leica.  Where all previous Ms have felt like last generation tech, the M10R felt like modern tech that competed with Canon,Nikon,Sony and Fuji(GFX).   With the M11 sensor, that leap feels greater.   The M10R is no slouch, but the M11 seems to have dialed it to 11(no pun intended).  The M11 low light is nothing short of astounding.  I feel that 10,000 or even 25,000 ISO is useable in daily shooting.  I feel the highlights are able to be recovered in a way we couldn't before.  The files just have a malleability that is up there with my GFX100s sensor, it feels like i could overexpose or underexpose by large amounts, and still have a useable file, and those benefits apply to much of the ISO range.  This is really the party piece of the M11, and that alone is worth the upgrade.   I was able to get some shots i really loved this weekend.   
The sensor also handles skin tones and mixed/difficult lighting situations significantly better than previous Ms.  

All in all, its a good upgrade to the M10 series.  I still have issues with the design changes, namely the SD under the battery.  Additionally, I wish we couldve had all of the sensor and performance improvements, with a more refined startup and shutter, but im learning to live with the flaws.   

So in conclusion, I have learned to love a lot of aspects of my M11, while learning to live with the aspects I dislike.  I will admit, i may have been a bit harsh and reactionary when i first received it, and gave it a weekend to get used to it.  So for those that are on the fence about it, go for it, you will not be disappointed.  

[elmars]

I agree with all apart fro Your opinion about the SD card slot. And my verdict about the shutter design is not as harsh as Yours. But of course it could be better it is not 100 % Leica Niveau.  

[ravinj]

I will not be getting an M11 because I don't have the money to buy it right now. 

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, neekon said:

So as many of you know, i was fairly vocal about my concerns and issues with the M11, primarily in this thread.   I stated that i was going to give it a chance this weekend and see how i felt.  Here are my thoughts. 
I still think that the shutter clunk at startup is just a poor design.  i know other cameras do it(also a poor design).  i know the startup time is about the same, so its not slowing anything down.   However, i just do not like it.  I had my dad, who is not the most tech savvy, listen and compare the M10R and M11, and he couldn't really hear or tell the difference.  It was a non-issue to him.   I, however, cannot not hear it, so its a bit of an annoyance.   I am learning to live with it. 

On to the second point, the shutter in the rangefinder shooting mode.  With the M10R/M10 series i thought the shutter in live view was terrible, the one in the M11 is growing on me, while i still prefer the one in the M10P/R/M/D series, the M11 is not nearly as bad as the M10 series in live view.  Interestingly, i find myself using live view more with the M11 than i did with the previous cameras.  I still hope for a EFCS, or M11P with curtain metering(for the option). I do not find the M11 shutter to be much of an issue after some use.  

The new metering mode is actually kind of nice, and a large improvement over the curtain metering.  I do find the exposures of my shots to be easier to predict, and overall jsut better.  
So that is a welcome change. 

The sensor is the biggest improvement.   The M10R was a special sensor for the M, IMHO.  It had a color and fidelity that the previous sensors didnt have.  It almost felt like a step up to a modern sensor tech for Leica.  Where all previous Ms have felt like last generation tech, the M10R felt like modern tech that competed with Canon,Nikon,Sony and Fuji(GFX).   With the M11 sensor, that leap feels greater.   The M10R is no slouch, but the M11 seems to have dialed it to 11(no pun intended).  The M11 low light is nothing short of astounding.  I feel that 10,000 or even 25,000 ISO is useable in daily shooting.  I feel the highlights are able to be recovered in a way we couldn't before.  The files just have a malleability that is up there with my GFX100s sensor, it feels like i could overexpose or underexpose by large amounts, and still have a useable file, and those benefits apply to much of the ISO range.  This is really the party piece of the M11, and that alone is worth the upgrade.   I was able to get some shots i really loved this weekend.   
The sensor also handles skin tones and mixed/difficult lighting situations significantly better than previous Ms.  

All in all, its a good upgrade to the M10 series.  I still have issues with the design changes, namely the SD under the battery.  Additionally, I wish we couldve had all of the sensor and performance improvements, with a more refined startup and shutter, but im learning to live with the flaws.   

So in conclusion, I have learned to love a lot of aspects of my M11, while learning to live with the aspects I dislike.  I will admit, i may have been a bit harsh and reactionary when i first received it, and gave it a weekend to get used to it.  So for those that are on the fence about it, go for it, you will not be disappointed.  

Thank you for the write-up.

Could you please tell the crowd on the street to disperse? They are still waiting for you to throw the camera from the 34th floor. 😂

Adding EFCS would improve the sound slightly. There does not seem to be any shutter shock, and added delay cannot be felt. I would like M11 keep to the shutter open when turned off, so the initial clunk cannot be heard.

[neekon]

1 minute ago, elmars said:

I agree with all apart fro Your opinion about the SD card slot. And my verdict about the shutter design is not as harsh as Yours. But of course it could be better it is not 100 % Leica Niveau.  

While i do think that i was a bit harsh on the M11 shutter.   I dont think i will ever like the shutter clunk on startup, but its something i have learned to live with and just plan accordingly(ie, i leave the camera on with a 10min shutdown).  
I just feel that there were better solutions.  The Q2 for example.  The battery is in one area, and the SD card is in another.   It just feels like they replaced the inconvenience of removing the bottom plate to access the SD card with having to remove the battery to get to the SD card.   

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, neekon said:

So as many of you know, i was fairly vocal about my concerns and issues with the M11, primarily in this thread.   I stated that i was going to give it a chance this weekend and see how i felt.  Here are my thoughts. 
I still think that the shutter clunk at startup is just a poor design.  i know other cameras do it(also a poor design).  i know the startup time is about the same, so its not slowing anything down.   However, i just do not like it.  I had my dad, who is not the most tech savvy, listen and compare the M10R and M11, and he couldn't really hear or tell the difference.  It was a non-issue to him.   I, however, cannot not hear it, so its a bit of an annoyance.   I am learning to live with it. 

On to the second point, the shutter in the rangefinder shooting mode.  With the M10R/M10 series i thought the shutter in live view was terrible, the one in the M11 is growing on me, while i still prefer the one in the M10P/R/M/D series, the M11 is not nearly as bad as the M10 series in live view.  Interestingly, i find myself using live view more with the M11 than i did with the previous cameras.  I still hope for a EFCS, or M11P with curtain metering(for the option). I do not find the M11 shutter to be much of an issue after some use.  

The new metering mode is actually kind of nice, and a large improvement over the curtain metering.  I do find the exposures of my shots to be easier to predict, and overall jsut better.  
So that is a welcome change. 

The sensor is the biggest improvement.   The M10R was a special sensor for the M, IMHO.  It had a color and fidelity that the previous sensors didnt have.  It almost felt like a step up to a modern sensor tech for Leica.  Where all previous Ms have felt like last generation tech, the M10R felt like modern tech that competed with Canon,Nikon,Sony and Fuji(GFX).   With the M11 sensor, that leap feels greater.   The M10R is no slouch, but the M11 seems to have dialed it to 11(no pun intended).  The M11 low light is nothing short of astounding.  I feel that 10,000 or even 25,000 ISO is useable in daily shooting.  I feel the highlights are able to be recovered in a way we couldn't before.  The files just have a malleability that is up there with my GFX100s sensor, it feels like i could overexpose or underexpose by large amounts, and still have a useable file, and those benefits apply to much of the ISO range.  This is really the party piece of the M11, and that alone is worth the upgrade.   I was able to get some shots i really loved this weekend.   
The sensor also handles skin tones and mixed/difficult lighting situations significantly better than previous Ms.  

All in all, its a good upgrade to the M10 series.  I still have issues with the design changes, namely the SD under the battery.  Additionally, I wish we couldve had all of the sensor and performance improvements, with a more refined startup and shutter, but im learning to live with the flaws.   

So in conclusion, I have learned to love a lot of aspects of my M11, while learning to live with the aspects I dislike.  I will admit, i may have been a bit harsh and reactionary when i first received it, and gave it a weekend to get used to it.  So for those that are on the fence about it, go for it, you will not be disappointed.  

As with lenses: flaws = character 😅.

[neekon]

1 minute ago, SrMi said:

Thank you for the write-up.

Could you please tell the crowd on the street to disperse? They are still waiting for you to throw the camera from the 34th floor. 😂

Adding EFCS would improve the sound slightly. There does not seem to be any shutter shock, and added delay cannot be felt. I would like M11 keep to the shutter open when turned off, so the initial clunk cannot be heard.

You're welcome, i did mention that i would update after the weekend of shooting.

Haha, ill be sure to pass that message along.   

it might help, it might not, but its definitely something that could be added in firmware and at least give the option.  As you said, it will help most with shutter shock.  Additionally, i agree that an option to leave the shutter open on shutdown would be welcomed, although idk if its technically possible.  

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[neekon]

2 minutes ago, SrMi said:

As with lenses: flaws = character 😅.

depends on the flaw.