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Why I will not be getting a M11...


bernstein1234

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9 hours ago, davidvanchu said:

No thanks, I stare at screens enough as it is. It is impossible to make an EVF look the same as looking at the world through optical glass. Although I imagine a system like this would use two small cameras in lieu of the two windows, with software that overlaps the images controlled by the rangefinder cam mechanism which could be greatly simplified in this case, and I think it would be very cool as a concept.

Exactly, you understood me perfectly, software programming to overlap images / views.

It could be a complete EVF with 2 images or an OVF with electronic overlay for focussing (peaking e.g.). 

The others commenting on my post have assumed that the EVF has to look through the lens. As the technology evolves, I don't think we need to limit ourselves to the status quo. 

I take your point about looking at the screens, I do the same all day for work. 

My point is having 60 megapixels requires more precision in focussing. Some here might comment that they don't have a problem at all in focussing but I have and I cannot be the only one.

Anyway, this point about rangefinder, what M means and EVF has been debated on many threads and let's avoid that. Leica will do what they want to do.

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1 hour ago, Knipsknecht said:

Sorry, but no! The SL is a completely different camera that shares just the red dot with the M. And the SL (as well as the Q, the Q2 and the digital CL) is already competing against all other manufacturers. And it is not the end of Leica.

Right now the M is kind of a Frankenstein camera. One third rooted in the 1950’s, two thirds jumping on the digital train. And with the latest iteration it becomes much more obvious than with the M10 that Leica is following the latest trends on the market.

The funny thing is, a few months back I have argued the same way as you. But since I’ve seen the M11 and its specs I am pretty sure that sooner or later the rangefinder will fade away. Maybe Leica will split up the product line as @jrichiesuggests in his post above.

Agree. Just use the Leica film camera if someone wants a purist experience. Why go half digital!

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2 hours ago, jrichie said:

Hi All

I have been a member here for a long time here but rarely post [I will be more].

Yesterday I went to the Leica store and tested the M11 with visoflex.  I agree with some comments on here that it feels like a camera in development and isn’t sure what it is anymore.  Like a hybrid of the SL2 [which I have] and an M.

I think they need to go back to basics on the M and an have a new separate fully digital EVF version.  Right now it is just confused about what it wants to be and as others have said, unfinished.

The visoflex experience wasn’t close to the SL2, and overall as a ‘digital’ the SL2 is a much better camera to use.

I actually have the funds to buy this camera now, for the first time in a long time, and wont be.  I am going to enjoy the SL2 and await a fully digital M mount camera for my M lenses.  The M11 is a stepping stone to this, but just felt a little weird [like a 2022 camera from the 1950’s].

I feel Leica will at some point, replace the rangefinder with this new visoflex and create a new model. Or that's what they should do. I am annoyed that Visoflex costs £600 on top of M11. The rangefinder mechanism itself I heard costs 1000+ and is prone to misalignment. 

The SL series is not for me. It is too big and heavy, something I would have never associated Leica with. For some Leica is about rangefinder, for me it is about having a small full frame camera, with great quality small lenses that you can carry easily without sacrificing quality. - At least that's why I was attracted to Leica in the first place. I am not sure how many people will buy a Sony if they come out with a rangefinder 🙂

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4 hours ago, jrichie said:

Exactly.

there should be 2 models of M.  Manual Rangefinder for the purist that costs a fortune, and a digital EVF for those who dont want to live in the past but enjoy the M lenses and manual focus [and get more M’s into more hands as the price should be more like the SL2].

The M11 is an improved frankenstein iteration of previous models, and is just getting weird now, in my eyes.

Which model makes more money for the leica business out of the M series and the SL series do you think?  

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58 minutes ago, steve 1959 said:

Which model makes more money for the leica business out of the M series and the SL series do you think?  

If I had a choice, I would have an M11 with EVF only. In fact I would have bought it on the spot yesterday, if it existed.

so Leica lost a sale. 
 

The point of the SL2 I was trying to make is that the EVF is superb, and the whole M lens experience with it so far is great. I would much prefer an M body however and like @Mahesh was always attracted to Leica for the small bodies and manual M lenses.

I also believe that Leica would sell more cameras if they just had a rangefinder M and EVF M rather than this M11 hybrid thing. I would be paying for a rangefinder which I don’t want anymore and a clunky visoflex, which are the core reasons why I won’t be buying.
 

For me it is just have a few lines of cameras - S / M / Q full frame only and nail options for each user, at a high quality level.

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10 minutes ago, jrichie said:

If I had a choice, I would have an M11 with EVF only. In fact I would have bought it on the spot yesterday, if it existed.

so Leica lost a sale. 
 

The point of the SL2 I was trying to make is that the EVF is superb, and the whole M lens experience with it so far is great. I would much prefer an M body however and like @Mahesh was always attracted to Leica for the small bodies and manual M lenses.

I also believe that Leica would sell more cameras if they just had a rangefinder M and EVF M rather than this M11 hybrid thing. I would be paying for a rangefinder which I don’t want anymore and a clunky visoflex, which are the core reasons why I won’t be buying.
 

For me it is just have a few lines of cameras - S / M / Q full frame only and nail options for each user, at a high quality level.

To me the day the M lineup moves to an EVF that's the end of the M line to me. I use Leica for the rangefinder, not to focus through an electronic screen. The simpler the M the better. 

I do agree that having two separate cameras rather than a hybrid that doesn't fully please both sides is a much better direction though.

Edited by shirubadanieru
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8 minutes ago, jrichie said:

If I had a choice, I would have an M11 with EVF only. In fact I would have bought it on the spot yesterday, if it existed.

so Leica lost a sale. 
 

The point of the SL2 I was trying to make is that the EVF is superb, and the whole M lens experience with it so far is great. I would much prefer an M body however and like @Mahesh was always attracted to Leica for the small bodies and manual M lenses.

I also believe that Leica would sell more cameras if they just had a rangefinder M and EVF M rather than this M11 hybrid thing. I would be paying for a rangefinder which I don’t want anymore and a clunky visoflex, which are the core reasons why I won’t be buying.
 

For me it is just have a few lines of cameras - S / M / Q full frame only and nail options for each user, at a high quality level.

An M Leica with EVF would not be an M Leica. Leica would have lost many, many sales if it launched an EVF-only M11. Glad to hear that Leica lost only one sale ;-).

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5 hours ago, SrMi said:

The rangefinder is the future :)!
When, for whatever reason, I shoot with the Visoflex, most of the time, I focus using the rangefinder. 

An EVF only M would be quite annoying, IMO.

I've spent considerable time shooting Leica rangefinders and I agree an EVF only M would be annoying based on current EVF technology. It's just too slow to focus with moving subjects. I think Leica would need to invent a new type of focus assistant to solve this. Imagine an EVF M with a rangefinder patch that perfectly emulated an optical range finder. It would take something extremely innovative like this to fully replace the OVF with a EVF.

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Guest BlackBarn

The reason I’m  not buying the M11 is because the characteristics of a camera - obviously essential - contributes the least towards the images I produce - may be 5%. Like a paint brush it only has to be competently made, reliable and feel good in the hand. So the  ‘improvements’  which appear to make a significant difference to others holds lesser value  to me.

I find more expression when working with older lenses so if I buy another Leica camera it will be stepping back not forward. Possibly exploring and enjoying the characteristics of the ‘older’ digital cameras. 

i appreciate why some get seduced and inhabit the treadmill of advancing technology but as that side pushes forward with each new release, my M cameras (10M, MP 240, M6J) somehow become more precious and more enjoyable to use.

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29 minutes ago, BlackBarn said:

The reason I’m  not buying the M11 is because the characteristics of a camera - obviously essential - contributes the least towards the images I produce - may be 5%. Like a paint brush it only has to be competently made, reliable and feel good in the hand. So the  ‘improvements’  which appear to make a significant difference to others holds lesser value  to me.

I find more expression when working with older lenses so if I buy another Leica camera it will be stepping back not forward. Possibly exploring and enjoying the characteristics of the ‘older’ digital cameras. 

i appreciate why some get seduced and inhabit the treadmill of advancing technology but as that side pushes forward with each new release, my M cameras (10M, MP 240, M6J) somehow become more precious and more enjoyable to use.

All reports indicate that older lenses work better with M11 (BSI).

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17 hours ago, Mahesh said:

It is all perception. Technically, Leica could implement an EVF that is best in its class and performs exactly like the OVF that we have at the moment - view outside the lens frame, rangefinder patch overlap etc. with an option to have other means of focussing, like peaking etc. 

Um, you're never going to get an EVF to perform like an OVF, of any type. It will always be an artificial man made view vs. a clear natural light optical view - light directly to the eye. Our eyes are genetically designed for natural light, not man made light. Screens jack up our bio-rhythms, destroy our eyesight, and just aren't as pleasant to look at vs. natural light. I like evf's, but that is one downside that can't be overcome. 

Edited by CGarrard
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The M240 is the end of the M road for me. I  am very happy to use it exclusively as a rangefinder. It has made me believe that the EVF/rangefinder mix is not for me, whatever the improvements to the EVF. The sensor performance is the only thing that would lead me to buy another M, but for the time being the M240 satisfies my needs. 

I am not interested in ultrafast, megalarge lenses for the M. To me the M is now a 28 mm f2, 35mm f2, 50mm f1.4 rangefinder tool. Everything else is for the SL2. 

I do hope that Leica sells many M11s. I am very happy that they are succeeding. 


 

 

 

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The big problem with an evf only M is this : - shutter blackout.

Unless the sensor is stacked, or global shutter is used then the blackout will be irritating issue which harks back at why many choose to shoot with a M...That is rangefinder seperate from the image capture in comparison to other mirrorless camera. Remove the rangefinder this then the M becomes another mirrorless...a faux rangefinder like the fuji xpro

I for one don't want blackout. An integrated evf is ok if it's lag free and without blackout. 

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Now that Leica has forged a strong partnership with Apple, I can’t wait for the future true rangefinder Leica Mxx.

The one marrying the M with Apple Glass. Why struggle to see with one eye behind spectacles, when you can see with both, on Apple’s prescription glass technology?
 

 

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10 hours ago, Mahesh said:

Exactly, you understood me perfectly, software programming to overlap images / views.

It could be a complete EVF with 2 images or an OVF with electronic overlay for focussing (peaking e.g.). 

The others commenting on my post have assumed that the EVF has to look through the lens. As the technology evolves, I don't think we need to limit ourselves to the status quo. 

I take your point about looking at the screens, I do the same all day for work. 

My point is having 60 megapixels requires more precision in focussing. Some here might comment that they don't have a problem at all in focussing but I have and I cannot be the only one.

Anyway, this point about rangefinder, what M means and EVF has been debated on many threads and let's avoid that. Leica will do what they want to do.

If it isn’t going to look through the lens for the EVF then the camera would require another sensor on the camera to collect the image data to display on the EVF screen. How do you see it working? The development of technology is still limited by laws of physics!

Some sort of hybrid system like the Fuji X Pro system I guess is a possibility but again that uses the view through the lens for the EVF. But then creating a convoluted EVF alternative to an optical rangefinder is a bit, I guess skeuomorphic/pastichey. I found the Fuji a bit gimmicky and ended up just using the EVF.

I’d welcome two bodies - an M for the pure rangefinder experience and a body with EVF like a full frame CL or ILC Q. Preferably with native M mount rather than L mount.

One thing I would really love is the development of a final rangefinder M body where the internals are replaceable. Each upgrade cycle you could return the camera for an upgraded sensor/processor should you wish. There’s not really anywhere left for the visual design of the M to go. 

I’m honestly torn about buying a film M. I love the idea of something that will just last “forever”….. but that’s just the romantic in me and having never really shot film before I’m a bit intimidated by it!

That’s my brain emptied for the day.

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46 minutes ago, cboy said:

The big problem with an evf only M is this : - shutter blackout.

Unless the sensor is stacked, or global shutter is used then the blackout will be irritating issue which harks back at why many choose to shoot with a M...That is rangefinder seperate from the image capture in comparison to other mirrorless camera. Remove the rangefinder this then the M becomes another mirrorless...a faux rangefinder like the fuji xpro

I for one don't want blackout. An integrated evf is ok if it's lag free and without blackout. 

You might want to look at the CL, Q or SL bodies. No blackout. A barely visible momentary freezing at worst in the earlier models. Blackout may be a problem with the M11 EVF, but it is not so with other modern cameras.

AFAIC the main problem with an EVF that has not yet been addressed is elimination of lag. The latest EVFs are good, but not equivalent to an OVF. 

Edited by LocalHero1953
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Why didn't Leica make use of the sensor by integrating phase-detection to assist manual focusing, e.g. in the center of the sensor and visualized the focus direction by two arrows mirrored in the rangefinder, like the M6 does for exposure metering.

I think this would solve the problem not entirely, but would realy be a big step forward.

I use all my m lenses happily with my film Ms, but digital I use Nikon Z7. But I would prefer a focus aid solution within an M body. and no EVF imposed, that looks strange .

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