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Why I will not be getting a M11...


bernstein1234

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Hear me out guys, I'm pretty sure there are plenty of you out there with the same thoughts.

1. More megapixels?

This means having to shoot at much higher shutter speeds even on motionless objects (think 1/100, 1/200). Previously I could get away with 1/30 for statics on a M10-P, 50mm focal length. Of course one can argue to mount the fastest, fattest and baddest Summiluxes, but that would defeat the purpose of having the reduced weight on the black aluminium M11.

Not having seen real samples (yet), but I would think that 40mp would suffice. Of course, people used to say '24 is the sweet spot', but then I started to notice the lag on my MBP with the 40mp M10-R.

2. Bigger battery?

I could carry 2 spares for M10-P on my trips, the weights hardly noticeable.

3. Better sensor?

I'm not sure about M11, but according to Jono, the base ISO of M10-R yield the same or even slightly better dynamic range than the ISO 64. Anyhow, I am pretty satisfied with the dynamic range on M10-R. Also, if I want to get the Leica look easily, I can always turn to my M9-P.

4. Lighter weight?

I suspect that to complement the lightweight package, the lenses would have to also be smaller (think Summicrons, Summarits). But as mentioned in Point 1, having 'slower' lenses would mean the need for higher shutter speeds due to the increase megapixels previously only seen in Medium format territory, where steady hands or tripods/monopods are necessary. For me, I found that M9 is light enough, coupled with Summicrons, the total weight is around 590g + 255g = 845g for M9, as compared to 532g + 320g = 862g for M11.

5. Probably better high ISO?

If assuming from Point 1 is true about having to shoot at higher shutter speeds than previous models, then it will also mean having to bump up ISO when light conditions are not optimal.

 

My take

I would stick to combination of M10-R (Black Chrome version) and M9-P for now. The only purchase I would make is probably the Visoflex 2. On the whole, I think I'll wait out for M12 or until the next model with IBIS, due to the ever increasing arms race for more megapixels. Are they necessary, really?

 

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17 minutes ago, bernstein1234 said:

Hear me out guys, I'm pretty sure there are plenty of you out there with the same thoughts.

1. More megapixels?

This means having to shoot at much higher shutter speeds even on motionless objects (think 1/100, 1/200). Previously I could get away with 1/30 for statics on a M10-P, 50mm focal length. Of course one can argue to mount the fastest, fattest and baddest Summiluxes, but that would defeat the purpose of having the reduced weight on the black aluminium M11.

Not having seen real samples (yet), but I would think that 40mp would suffice. Of course, people used to say '24 is the sweet spot', but then I started to notice the lag on my MBP with the 40mp M10-R.

<snip>

The issue with faster shutter speeds is a non-issue according to elmars' tests:

More megapixels mean less moire and more flexibility. There is also indication that noise reduction works better with more megapixels (Jim Kasson's work).

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2 minutes ago, SrMi said:

The issue with faster shutter speeds is a non-issue according to elmars' tests:

More megapixels mean less moire and more flexibility. There is also indication that noise reduction works better with more megapixels (Jim Kasson's work).

If that's the case, then it would be fantastic. Probably my last excuse not to purchase M11 would be lack of funds 🤣

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1 hour ago, SrMi said:

There is also indication that noise reduction works better with more megapixels (Jim Kasson's work).

Directly my experience as well. More information in the image means the software has more to work with. Logical, I would think, but it's amazing how many people (who've never owned a higher megapixel camera) don't believe it.

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A quick and dirty de-noise example, just a screenshot from my mac of a preview window in Topaz (not final result) from one of the M11 sample files. ISO 10,000. 

Quite a large crop as well, I'll post the full size version in the next one.

Edited by Stevejack
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5 minutes ago, neekon said:

I actually bought one.  I regret it.  

after 14hrs of use And this might change as I get used to it.  But my initial reaction is one of regret and frustration 

I think the finish of the black one is appalling. I think the shutter feels/sounds and acts cheap and unrefined.  I think the “Clunk” on start up is equally unrefined.  
It feels the menu is missing a lot that the M10R BP had.  
The SD under the battery is just complete bullshit.  Its like “lets remove the bottom plate to refine the bottom, but also make the SD card even more inaccessible”

I feel as thought the camera and system as a whole took a gigantic step forward with regards to the sensor and overall tech behind it.  However it is a gigantic step back in regards to actually using the camera .  

I need to use it more and see if the faults are worth the images, however currently I am close to tossing it out my 34th floor window 

Good feedback to have. My concern with the M11 has nothing to do with image quality (Sony/Leica/Canon they are all pretty much the same to me), but all to do with the user experience. It's got to feel mechanical and different from all the other cameras - in a good way. Sounds like it's really missing the mark there. 

Thanks for your feedback. 

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18 minutes ago, neekon said:

I actually bought one.  I regret it.  

after 14hrs of use And this might change as I get used to it.  But my initial reaction is one of regret and frustration 

I think the finish of the black one is appalling. I think the shutter feels/sounds and acts cheap and unrefined.  I think the “Clunk” on start up is equally unrefined.  
It feels the menu is missing a lot that the M10R BP had.  
The SD under the battery is just complete bullshit.  Its like “lets remove the bottom plate to refine the bottom, but also make the SD card even more inaccessible”

I feel as thought the camera and system as a whole took a gigantic step forward with regards to the sensor and overall tech behind it.  However it is a gigantic step back in regards to actually using the camera .  

I need to use it more and see if the faults are worth the images, however currently I am close to tossing it out my 34th floor window 

I find the M11 SD-card access much simpler and faster than the M10R access to the card. I have started to take out the battery in my Q2 when attempting to access the SD card :).

What items are missing from the menu that are in M10-R? It would be good if Leica was able to eliminate menu entries.

There is nothing that feels cheep on M11.

Edited by SrMi
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Just now, Stevejack said:

Good feedback to have. My concern with the M11 has nothing to do with image quality (Sony/Leica/Canon they are all pretty much the same to me), but all to do with the user experience. It's got to feel mechanical and different from all the other cameras - in a good way. Sounds like it's really missing the mark there. 

Thanks for your feedback. 

So I agree.  I love my M due to the user experience.  I can't say the overall experience is terrible.  It just feels less refined than the M10 series when using the rangefinder.  The shutter has more of an M8 and M9 feel in terms of the click-rewind vs the M240/M10/M10p that was just a click.  Its not terrible, but its noticeable.  Additionally, the "clunk" of the shutter opening when the camera turns on feels delayed(its about 2 seconds after turning on the camera).  Making the startup slower than the M10/M10R.  
So far, I have only taken maybe a dozen images with it, still messing with it, and was busy all day.   Hoping I get a chance to try it out tomorrow, and compare it to the M10R. 
Will report back after trying it more.  

Although as much as I can use it, I can't get beyond the finish, which is just terrible. 

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6 minutes ago, SrMi said:

I find the M11 SD-card access much simpler and faster than the M10R access to the card. I have started to take out the battery in my Q2 when attempting to access the SD card :).

What items are missing from the menu that are in M10-R? It would be good if Leica was able to eliminate menu entries.

There is nothing that feels cheep on M10R.

It might feel quicker to access the SD-Card, but it definitely a terrible UI decision.  Who thought removing the battery was the best solution to also removing the SD-Card?  Seems idiotic.  

It feels the focus peaking when using live-view manual focus is much more simplified over the M10R, no level, no perspective control.  I haven't full gone over it though.  

I disagree.  The M11 feels like a toy.  It feels like an entry level toy.  The M10R BP I have feels significantly more refined and upmarket.  

9000$ is about 6000$ too much for the M11

Edited by neekon
correction
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Seems they updated everything except the very thing that makes the M camera special..the rangefinder.

Is it still going to go out of alignment in use? If so I wouldn't get it, because it will  (still) have the same issue as current M's. Odd to me that they didn't improve the rangefinder.  

60MP is far more than I need. Reason I went for the SL2s and not the SL2.

About the elmars' tests that posters are referring to. It seems he gets "grainier" images at 18MP setting with this camera. I couldn't even say I experienced that even with my old Olympus micro-four thirds camera at just 16MP! So there shouldn't really be any issues with shooting at 18MP with a brand new Leica.

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