Why I will not be getting a M11...

[shirubadanieru]

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I don’t enjoy shooting with a mirrorless camera, so before I actually bought the M11 this new ‘metering system’ crap was my main concern. I still prefer the old, simple yet effective metering, and to be honest the new metering does not give me any better results that I wouldn’t get from the old metering style. That being said, the M11 feels nothing like a mirrorless camera when using it, and it sounds exactly the same as the M10P or R or whatever other M10 camera…there’s like a different pitch or whatever, but it’s nitpicking, in actual use it makes no difference and it definitely does not feel like any other mirrorless camera, it’s still an M camera 100%, it just now shows the sensor instead of a curtain with a white ball in the middle. 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

40 minutes ago, Jacobjuul said:

Still the feeling is not the same. Especially the shutter coming back up to the open position after the exposure feels like a mirrorless camera. 

All the digital M's have felt different to each other. The M10 and M10P were different. The M11 is slightly different again. No other camera sounds like the M11. It is what it is.

In a shop, next to an M10R one might (hear) the difference as less than optimal but after a week or so of use I doubt anyone even notices any more.

Tried to plug my M10M into a USBC port today. That's a bigger step than the shutter sound.

Gordon

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[FlashGordonPhotography]

4 hours ago, paulsydaus said:

Why will light curtain meeting not come back?  If enough people are vocal about wanting it, then it would be extremely silly of Leica to ignore that.

Secondly, RDF measured the response time of the shutter and it is slower than the M10.  Not by much but it is slow.  This is the wrong direction for Leica to be taking the M.  I personally do not want or need fancy meeting modes on a rangefinder camera.  I want the camera to operate as fast as a mechanical film camera and sound like a mechanical film camera.  But be digital.  I agree with the issues the OP is expressing.

The shutter speed difference is 0.01 of a second, compared to the M10. That's well withing the range of error for your reaction time to push the shutter button. It's likely the M11 IS faster than the M-A. The difference in the throw depth of the shutter button is probably bigger.

And you can turn the metering to centre weighted, if you want. Do so and it will be EXACTLY the same as the metering in the previous M's. Centre weighted. Centre weighted metering is already available in the M11. I can tell you now the new multi weighted metering in the M11 is really much better and more consistant than the M10. But if you feel the need to shoot in dinosaur mode, it's still available on the M11.

I'm sorry but I think you lot have lost your collective minds! It's a 10 millisecond change! Infintessably small difference. It's faster than the M8. Faster than the M9. Faster than the M (240). I'm stunned that so many people are so put out by something they couldn't measure without specialised equipment. Something that makes NO differene to the shooting experience. Zero. Nada. Nil! The old metering pattern is currently available. And the M10R is still there if you want one.

This place makes me shake my head sometimes. There are some things that do make a change. There are some firmware issues that need to be addressed. These are not them. And I'll bet  a grand that less than 1% of actual  M11 owners want to go back after a week of ownership. The rest of you need to rent one instead of worrying about 10 milliseconds. 5 minutes in a shop isn't the way to tell. I don't even have my EVF yet and this is already a better camera than the M10/P/R. There's so many good things going on with the M11 and yet we have pages and pages of drivel worrying about 10 milliseconds. It's bizzarre.

Then there's the one's whinning there's no IBIS. And the guy who wants the meter removed entirely. Damn I'm glad I'm not a camera designer at Leica. No one is happy with the M11. Except everyone who actually ues one, of course.

But hey, you go on for a few more pages about the shutter curtains while the rest of use enjoy vastly improved battery life, vastly improved live view, more button options, better metering, USB charging and some internal storage, better high ISO performance, better lowISO performance, longer exposure times, better sensor, improved microlenses, more DR etc... But I get it. An unmeasurable change in shutter dely is a deal breaker.

#facepalm

Gordon

[M11 for me]

The metering is 1 Mill times better than the one of the M10. I have real difficulties to understand why one would have the old system back. 

It is certainly worth listening "camera talk" from red dot forum: Its important not to spread half truths (or clearly wrong things) in this thread. 

[sebben]

1 hour ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

The shutter speed difference is 0.01 of a second, compared to the M10. That's well withing the range of error for your reaction time to push the shutter button. It's likely the M11 IS faster than the M-A. The difference in the throw depth of the shutter button is probably bigger.

 

These quoted numbers are only numbers. The real question is how does it work in reality. The SL supposedly had very little shutter lag but due to how the system works it would shoot slower than my M10. sometimes in single shot mode the SL would have 1000ms+ delay between pictures.

Until I see a video of someone shooting single images rapidly on the M11 where the shutter fires every time the shutter is released I will remain sceptical. 

[shirubadanieru]

1 hour ago, sebben said:

These quoted numbers are only numbers. The real question is how does it work in reality. The SL supposedly had very little shutter lag but due to how the system works it would shoot slower than my M10. sometimes in single shot mode the SL would have 1000ms+ delay between pictures.

Until I see a video of someone shooting single images rapidly on the M11 where the shutter fires every time the shutter is released I will remain sceptical. 

I have an M11 and I like it. I also think it's really pointless to complain about a 0.01 difference or about the shutter sound being 1% louder or whatever. It doesn't make any difference. At the same time, it's also a bit annoying to see current M11 owners defending the camera like it's a God. There are valid complains & annoying bugs. And that's ok, no camera is perfect. Is it the best M? Yes, but is it the most amazing thing ever OMG you must have it? No. It improves slightly on the previous M10R and that's all. If you're buying a new leica, get the M11 & it will offer you the most advanced shooting experience on an M. If you have a M10R, M10, M10M, there's little to no reason to upgrade for the next 3years or so.

[Tailwagger]

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7 hours ago, paulsydaus said:

Why will light curtain meeting not come back?  

It's possible, though I'm skeptical they'll go that way. Personally, I'd prefer Leica tackle the actually set of issues head on, rather than simply reverting to an inferior metering solution to solve them. But AFAICT, there seems to be no physical reason that thy couldn't. 

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[Jacobjuul]

4 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

The shutter speed difference is 0.01 of a second, compared to the M10. That's well withing the range of error for your reaction time to push the shutter button. It's likely the M11 IS faster than the M-A. The difference in the throw depth of the shutter button is probably bigger.

And you can turn the metering to centre weighted, if you want. Do so and it will be EXACTLY the same as the metering in the previous M's. Centre weighted. Centre weighted metering is already available in the M11. I can tell you now the new multi weighted metering in the M11 is really much better and more consistant than the M10. But if you feel the need to shoot in dinosaur mode, it's still available on the M11.

I'm sorry but I think you lot have lost your collective minds! It's a 10 millisecond change! Infintessably small difference. It's faster than the M8. Faster than the M9. Faster than the M (240). I'm stunned that so many people are so put out by something they couldn't measure without specialised equipment. Something that makes NO differene to the shooting experience. Zero. Nada. Nil! The old metering pattern is currently available. And the M10R is still there if you want one.

This place makes me shake my head sometimes. There are some things that do make a change. There are some firmware issues that need to be addressed. These are not them. And I'll bet  a grand that less than 1% of actual  M11 owners want to go back after a week of ownership. The rest of you need to rent one instead of worrying about 10 milliseconds. 5 minutes in a shop isn't the way to tell. I don't even have my EVF yet and this is already a better camera than the M10/P/R. There's so many good things going on with the M11 and yet we have pages and pages of drivel worrying about 10 milliseconds. It's bizzarre.

Then there's the one's whinning there's no IBIS. And the guy who wants the meter removed entirely. Damn I'm glad I'm not a camera designer at Leica. No one is happy with the M11. Except everyone who actually ues one, of course.

But hey, you go on for a few more pages about the shutter curtains while the rest of use enjoy vastly improved battery life, vastly improved live view, more button options, better metering, USB charging and some internal storage, better high ISO performance, better lowISO performance, longer exposure times, better sensor, improved microlenses, more DR etc... But I get it. An unmeasurable change in shutter dely is a deal breaker.

#facepalm

Gordon

It makes zero difference to YOU which is great and I've only tried the M11 in the store so I shouldn't be commenting really. I am sure the shutter lag is practically 0, but you can definitely feel the shutter come back up after taking the shot (coming back up to be ready for metering again). It's all just preference really. None is better than the other, but there IS a difference in feel (no matter how ridiculous you or I think it is to worry about it). 

Spot metering is better for some (who like to spent more time on their exposure), while multi matrix metering is better for people who want to get the shot quickly (or beginners/less experienced people).

[charlesphoto99]

2 hours ago, shirubadanieru said:

I have an M11 and I like it. I also think it's really pointless to complain about a 0.01 difference or about the shutter sound being 1% louder or whatever. It doesn't make any difference. At the same time, it's also a bit annoying to see current M11 owners defending the camera like it's a God. There are valid complains & annoying bugs. And that's ok, no camera is perfect. Is it the best M? Yes, but is it the most amazing thing ever OMG you must have it? No. It improves slightly on the previous M10R and that's all. If you're buying a new leica, get the M11 & it will offer you the most advanced shooting experience on an M. If you have a M10R, M10, M10M, there's little to no reason to upgrade for the next 3years or so.

This should be pinned. The FOMO around here is pretty ridiculous for something that really won't make 90% of the users that can actually afford one of these photographs 'better' coming from a previous gen digital Leica. On the same token, if buying an M from new, why wouldn't one go for the 11? 

[charlesphoto99]

Of course Leica will not bring back the 'old' metering system. That would mean a major redesign and retooling of the 11, a redesign and retooling of a redesign and retooling. That would be patently ridiculous. Just get an M10-R if that's one's main concerns. It's a perfectly fine camera that makes great photos for me everyday and will continue to do so far into the future. I can easily make 24X36 inch or larger prints from its measly 40mp (or the M10's 24 for that matter). 

[SrMi]

3 hours ago, sebben said:

These quoted numbers are only numbers. The real question is how does it work in reality. The SL supposedly had very little shutter lag but due to how the system works it would shoot slower than my M10. sometimes in single shot mode the SL would have 1000ms+ delay between pictures.

Until I see a video of someone shooting single images rapidly on the M11 where the shutter fires every time the shutter is released I will remain sceptical. 

The only way to get rid of your skepticism is to rent an M11 and use it for several days.
So far, it has worked with several skeptical forum members.

[sebben]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

The only way to get rid of your skepticism is to rent an M11 and use it for several days.
So far, it has worked with several skeptical forum members.

Impossible to do in Iceland I am afraid. It’s buy and pray. 

[orcinus]

2 hours ago, SrMi said:

The only way to get rid of your skepticism is to rent an M11 and use it for several days.
So far, it has worked with several skeptical forum members.

But he’s provided a solution to his skepticism himself - a video of rapid (single-shot) fire.

[Jeff S]

9 hours ago, M10 for me said:

The metering is 1 Mill times better than the one of the M10. I have real difficulties to understand why one would have the old system back. 

 

But your name suggests otherwise.

Jeff

[IkarusJohn]

15 hours ago, SrMi said:

... a consequence of an improved system (more measuring options, better image quality ... better compatibility with vintage lenses)

How does live view on permanently improve measuring options, image quality and compatibility with vintage lenses?

Multi-field metering is different to centre-weighted, but I'm not sure I would call it "improved".  If you want improved metering, then take out your light meter and take an incident reading.

I can understand people saying they prefer the new system, or they wish to hold to the shibboleth that shining and new is better, but there are advantages to the old system which many prefer.  I can also see that leaving live view on removes the need for the reflective metering off the shutter.  I can't quite see why it is "better".

Certainly losing the baseplate, improved battery, USB-C and (apparently) the sensor are all improvements.  As Gordon says (through gritted teeth) all iterations of the M are different.  Some changes appeal, others don't.  I'm hoping for a stripped back version without cropping, pixel binning and default multi-field metering (I like to chose what is metered).  Then again, an M-EVF would need permanent live view, and that I could live with as it has a purpose ...

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, IkarusJohn said:

How does live view on permanently improve measuring options, image quality and compatibility with vintage lenses?

Multi-field metering is different to centre-weighted, but I'm not sure I would call it "improved".  If you want improved metering, then take out your light meter and take an incident reading.

I can understand people saying they prefer the new system, or they wish to hold to the shibboleth that shining and new is better, but there are advantages to the old system which many prefer.  I can also see that leaving live view on removes the need for the reflective metering off the shutter.  I can't quite see why it is "better".

Certainly losing the baseplate, improved battery, USB-C and (apparently) the sensor are all improvements.  As Gordon says (through gritted teeth) all iterations of the M are different.  Some changes appeal, others don't.  I'm hoping for a stripped back version without cropping, pixel binning and default multi-field metering (I like to chose what is metered).  Then again, an M-EVF would need permanent live view, and that I could live with as it has a purpose ...

I addressed only the new vs. old metering system.

My post responded to the suggestion that we bring back the old metering system. I listed the following advantages of the new, sensor-based metering:

• More measuring options: RF mode has one more metering mode. All previous RF and LV metering modes are still available.
• Better image quality: since there is more room inside, M11 has better flare resistance than M11; situations where M10 would show reflections and ghost effects may be eliminated with M11 (source: Leica).
• Vintage lenses support: the removal of the metering block inside the camera should allow more vintage lenses (more room). I may be wrong about that one.

The old metering system has only one advantage, IMO: no clank when turning the camera on.

Note that M11 is not running in live view mode all the time. With live view mode turned off, the camera reads the sensor in a power-saving way. 

[IkarusJohn]

To coin a phrase, my mileage does vary 🙄

[Jeff S]

Andy (adan) wrote about his frustration with the ghosting/flare issue regarding the M10, well before the M11 was officially announced, and even diagrammed how more space inside the sensor box could eliminate the issue.  And that’s exactly how Leica described the benefit of removing the meter that was needed to make readings off the curtain. 
 

Jeff

Edited February 4, 2022 by Jeff S

[FlashGordonPhotography]

13 hours ago, sebben said:

These quoted numbers are only numbers. The real question is how does it work in reality. The SL supposedly had very little shutter lag but due to how the system works it would shoot slower than my M10. sometimes in single shot mode the SL would have 1000ms+ delay between pictures.

Until I see a video of someone shooting single images rapidly on the M11 where the shutter fires every time the shutter is released I will remain sceptical. 

To the best of my limited testing I can't perceive any difference. The shutter sound is slightly different to the M10R but I'm not noticing any delay differences to the shutter at all. It's quieter than the regular M10.

 

Gordon

Edited February 4, 2022 by FlashGordonPhotography

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[setuporg]

hey @neekon, checking in how are things on the 34th floor...:)