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Why I will not be getting a M11...


bernstein1234

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52 minutes ago, cboy said:

The big problem with an evf only M is this : - shutter blackout.

Unless the sensor is stacked, or global shutter is used then the blackout will be irritating issue which harks back at why many choose to shoot with a M...That is rangefinder seperate from the image capture in comparison to other mirrorless camera. Remove the rangefinder this then the M becomes another mirrorless...a faux rangefinder like the fuji xpro

I for one don't want blackout. An integrated evf is ok if it's lag free and without blackout. 

Is there still blackout with the e-shutter? It’s just when using manual shutter, yeah?

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My worry is noise. Nauseating NOISE.

Blackout? Yes, that can be annoying but then you should probably stop the preview then . . .

And camera shake. I expect by selecting electronic shutter and an automatically selected Black Picture for noise reduction: the shock of the mechanism of the shutter the does not vibrate into sensor, but for now I see quite some vagueness in details.

  • This shock is bad in an IBIS-supported sensor which is suspended in springs and driven by 'motors' (piezo crystals I expect). Or something like that. So I learned choosing electronic shutters there; and Steven 🤐 agreed with me regarding that for the M11 too.

 

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2 minutes ago, Artin said:

Evikne for your style of photography.. when your ready....  I can give you at least 10 reasons why you should.

I will probably only have the opportunity to buy one more M camera for the rest of my life, so I have to choose carefully (my old father has promised me $ 10,000 for a new camera before he dies). I will wait for the M11-D, and maybe also the M12-D. 

I can live perfectly well with my standard M10 until then.

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Did you have a nice time relaxing while I was out, dear?

Yes, yes, I've been reading. Really interesting.

Oh, what did you read?

These 15 pages of discussion about the new Leica camera.

Oh, what's the verdict?

Some people are unhappy about the shutter, and other people are unhappy there are no drawers in the cardboard box it comes in. Some people think its all progress and some people thinks it's a sacrilege. 

I'm glad you had a nice time, dear. 

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Back to the serious issues. From all the posts I have read so far I am sure that the new M11 is really a new piece of technology in the M-universe. However, I think the new M11 is also an intermediate step towards a more sophisticated version, perhaps M11-P. I remember the change from the M10 to M10-P. It reduced the shutter noise to a minimum. I own a M10 and for me it is not possible to use the camera in classic concerts or a theatre performance because the shutter is simply to loud.
So perhaps I have to wait for the M11-P which will supersede the M11 (aka 'The Clunk') anytime soon. The clunk -  apparently it doesn't sound like a clunk according to some early ear witnesses. Since I am so nosy I will definitely pop in a Leica Store at some stage to check whether it is true (or the opposite is true).
Finally, one question to M11 owners: Live view can't be turned off. Does it mean the backscreen is always on?

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Maybe we should simply consider the M-cycle as 2 years, not 4. It takes 4+ years to develop a model that is actually in a condition to sell, plus another 2 years to add in all those things that weren't actually ready at launch date, such as a new sensor (M10R). So what will we see in the real M11 in two years time? 

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7 hours ago, shirubadanieru said:

what does that mean though? because I prefer my older lenses (1950s) on the M9M vs M10M because the M10M made the lenses appear sharper & lose some of their unique character.

No unwanted vignetting and sharpness degradation in the corner, some old lenses can be used with M11 again when that was not possible before.

It should be easy to remove sharpness in post.

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6 hours ago, bandrews said:

One thing I would really love is the development of a final rangefinder M body where the internals are replaceable. Each upgrade cycle you could return the camera for an upgraded sensor/processor should you wish. There’s not really anywhere left for the visual design of the M to go. 

 

Things didn’t end well for the last Leica exec who talked about a perpetual upgrade program (See Steven Lee bio). 😳

Jeff

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8 hours ago, bandrews said:

There’s not really anywhere left for the visual design of the M to go. 

The M never did get a lot of big visual changes like other cameras. With the M3 it started with a extremely good, practical design that basically was perfect from the beginning on. All changes that happened till today where small iterations, no visual resigns. ( ignoring the M5 here for a second ). Everything is pretty much still based on the M3.

After the M3 (1954 ), the first change was the M2 (1958 ) wich is a little more streamlined in its design. Especially the versions without the self timer. Then came the M4 (1967) wich streamlined the design even  more with the removal of the "teeth" at the front, it added a small practical design change with the rewind and it added a (at that time) more modern touch with the levers at the front. After that the first real new design iteration was the M4P (1980) with the first appearance of the (now iconic but controversial) red dot on the camera bodys. The M6 (1984) just "perfected" the positioning of the logo. After the M6, the MP (2003) did go a little "back to the roots"

All the digital Ms till today, mix the visual identity introduced with the M6 and MP. A M11 still looks like the same camera as the first M3. Both look like a M. The Leica M did become a  (iconic) visual identity in itself because of its timeless, pretty much perfect design wich basically didn't change in 70 Years.

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9 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

You might want to look at the CL, Q or SL bodies. No blackout. A barely visible momentary freezing at worst in the earlier models. Blackout may be a problem with the M11 EVF, but it is not so with other modern cameras.

AFAIC the main problem with an EVF that has not yet been addressed is elimination of lag. The latest EVFs are good, but not equivalent to an OVF. 

A blackout is necessary when the mechanical shutter is used. I like the artificial blackout in electronic mode when using LV as it shows me that an image was taken.

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9 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

You might want to look at the CL, Q or SL bodies. No blackout. A barely visible momentary freezing at worst in the earlier models. Blackout may be a problem with the M11 EVF, but it is not so with other modern cameras.

AFAIC the main problem with an EVF that has not yet been addressed is elimination of lag. The latest EVFs are good, but not equivalent to an OVF. 

My apologies, I was wrong - yes, there is a blackout (just checked SL2-S and CL).
Strange how your recollection plays tricks - but it's just a sign of how little it disturbs me.

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8 hours ago, evikne said:

I will probably only have the opportunity to buy one more M camera for the rest of my life, so I have to choose carefully (my old father has promised me $ 10,000 for a new camera before he dies). I will wait for the M11-D, and maybe also the M12-D. 

I can live perfectly well with my standard M10 until then.

hopefully that will be the M23 ..

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9 hours ago, Stevejack said:

Is there still blackout with the e-shutter? It’s just when using manual shutter, yeah?

There is a very short, non-intrusive blackout with electronic shutter as well. There are no blackouts with OVF 🤣.

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2 hours ago, Kriehuber said:

The M never did get a lot of big visual changes like other cameras. With the M3 it started with a extremely good, practical design that basically was perfect from the beginning on. All changes that happened till today where small iterations, no visual resigns. ( ignoring the M5 here for a second ). Everything is pretty much still based on the M3.

After the M3 (1954 ), the first change was the M2 (1958 ) wich is a little more streamlined in its design. Especially the versions without the self timer. Then came the M4 (1967) wich streamlined the design even  more with the removal of the "teeth" at the front, it added a small practical design change with the rewind and it added a (at that time) more modern touch with the levers at the front. After that the first real new design iteration was the M4P (1980) with the first appearance of the (now iconic but controversial) red dot on the camera bodys. The M6 (1984) just "perfected" the positioning of the logo. After the M6, the MP (2003) did go a little "back to the roots"

All the digital Ms till today, mix the visual identity introduced with the M6 and MP. A M11 still looks like the same camera as the first M3. Both look like a M. The Leica M did become a  (iconic) visual identity in itself because of its timeless, pretty much perfect design wich basically didn't change in 70 Years.

Yes, that's what I meant. Although there was a considerable change in size from the previous digital M amongst other changes including the ISO dial. The M11 again still has some design changes. I'm talking about no design changes at all. I know this will never happen but a model that could be infinitely upgradable would be my dream camera.

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So, apparently the M11 is an improvement in all respects, which is great.

However, I don’t need 60MP, I don’t really have any interest in pixel binning, I don’t see any point in cropping in-camera and I don’t really have an issue with the traditional centre-weighted metering off the shutter. In my experience, if you want accurate metering, incident metering is the only way to go; if you must reflective meter, then a 1° Gossen spot meter, preferably with zone calculations is the next best thing.  In camera, reflective metering is always a compromise - sure, averaged, multi-point metering is pretty good - I have it on my SL, TL2 and my M10-D when I use the Visoflex.

I hope that Leica produces an M9-E equivalent, which is just a nice improvement on the M10 - metering off the shutter, one MP setting (the best for the sensor and leave it at that - I really don’t care if it is 24, 40 or 60 MP), EVF compatible, blue tooth and WiFi, or whatever the M11 has.

The cropping, the pixel binning and the live view metering are a bit of a turn-off for me, as I like the rangefinder.  Yes, it’s good to have all the extras with the EVF, but I prefer the base mode.  I know I could set the resolution at 60, and forget it, and I can ignore the cropping mode and I would get used to the live view metering, but it would still bug me.  My M10-D is looking like a long term user …

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