Why I will not be getting a M11...

[Kwesi]

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The point I was making is that each current generation has been a refinement of the previous one. 

[geddon_jt]

2 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

Perhaps, but, as you seem to be new to the forum (welcome!),  if you go back to the initial postings on the 10-R, stop gap is exactly how it was described at the time, with a number of folks claiming that the M11 would arrive within a year.  As it turned out they very nearly were spot on, with it it taking only a year and half for the R to be superseded.  But if we gauge the attitude toward the 10-R today, the mood has shifted from stopgap M to classic, last of the breed, M.  Leica shooters are a fickle lot; the only thing one can reliably anticipated about the impact of a future M is that it will be met with strong emotion and divergent opinion. 

Thanks for the welcome, I've been here a few years, I just don't post too much

I totally agree with you... when M10-R came out people viewed it as a stop gap until the M11. Now that the M11 is out, speaking for myself, I certainly see the M10-R as the ultimate expression/refinement of what began with the M10 over 4 years earlier.

And as to Kwesi's point I respectfully disagree as to the M11, which to me is unique insofar as it is the first digital M to have a digital shutter option but remains hanging on to the physical shutter option, albeit in kind of a strange way with the implementation of the sensor-based metering etc. I can't imagine the next M will retain this "dual purpose" implementation but that's just me.

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[IkarusJohn]

1 hour ago, Kwesi said:

The point I was making is that each current generation has been a refinement of the previous one. 

Not sure I understand.  If the next iteration is not a refinement or improvement, then why would they release it?  I guess next versions of products do get released for marketing or to meet demand, without actually improving anything.  Not sure that has ever been Leica's strategy ...

[Kwesi]

3 hours ago, Kwesi said:

I personally think that when Leica eventually releases an M that has only a digital shutter with a high enough readout speed to avoid rolling shutter that the M11 will be largely relegated to a stopgap measure camera. Not trying to argue with anyone here and not disputing it takes good pictures. But to me it feels like a half measure toward the next major innovation.

 

32 minutes ago, geddon_jt said:

And as to Kwesi's point I respectfully disagree as to the M11, which to me is unique insofar as it is the first digital M to have a digital shutter option but remains hanging on to the physical shutter option, albeit in kind of a strange way with the implementation of the sensor-based metering etc. I can't imagine the next M will retain this "dual purpose" implementation but that's just me.

 

4 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Not sure I understand.  If the next iteration is not a refinement or improvement, then why would they release it?  I guess next versions of products do get released for marketing or to meet demand, without actually improving anything.  Not sure that has ever been Leica's strategy ...

geddon_it and Ikarus John,

All I was trying to say (and clearly doing a horrible job of it) is that since the M 240 each subsequent generation has been a modest refining of the previous one. and so it will be with the M11 versus the M12. I agree with IkarusJohn that that's so obvious that it doesn't bear mentioning and yet I mentioned it so that geddon_it can find a better reason to not buy the M11

[IkarusJohn]

All iterations of the M camera have been modest, with the exceptions of the M5 and M(240). Will the M11 be a modest refinement of the M10, or a half-baked hesitantvstep into something new?

For me, the cropping and binning are irrelevant; the improved battery, lost baseplate, internal memory (others) are definite improvements; 60MP probably a step too far; and permanent live view, multi-field metering and electronic shutter unappealing and unwanted. The proof of this pudding won’t be the eating (for me), but what comes next.  

If there’s an M11-P, I imagine it will be a refinement.  The M12 will either be a step forward - no manual shutter, EVF version (?) - or it will be an M10 like retreat to core M values, with an MEVF version?  Who knows - there will pages of speculation, leaks, rumours and gnashing of teeth before we get there. 

[geddon_jt]

18 minutes ago, Kwesi said:

 

 

geddon_it and Ikarus John,

All I was trying to say (and clearly doing a horrible job of it) is that since the M 240 each subsequent generation has been a modest refining of the previous one. and so it will be with the M11 versus the M12. I agree with IkarusJohn that that's so obvious that it doesn't bear mentioning and yet I mentioned it so that geddon_it can find a better reason to not buy the M11

I agree big picture generally speaking that all new Ms are “refining” prior versions. I personally see the implementation of a digital shutter as rather significant and more than a simple refinement since it never existed before in an M camera and appears central to the M11 user experience.

not trying to find reasons to buy or not buy anything. Just interested in the discussion and of course where the M line is headed in the future.

[Jeff S]

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Well, I would say that the M8, the first digital M, was more than a modest refinement.  And the M9, the first full frame digital M, was different enough to initially need to overcome issues with cracked sensors, red edges, buffer issues, etc, along with a change in many users’ lens strategy. One person’s ‘refinement’ is another’s heaven… or hell.  Hence the cyclical debates with every new platform.

Jeff

[Tailwagger]

56 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

...there will pages of speculation, leaks, rumours and gnashing of teeth before we get there. 

Ah... after a hard day of shooting, better even than a nice warm soak in the tub. Truly the most enjoyable feature of any new M. 😆