adan Posted November 21, 2021 Share #361 Posted November 21, 2021 Advertisement (gone after registration) 5 minutes ago, NZDavid said: The original Leica Barnack models sold in quadzillions and it's not surprising why -- there were capable, compact cameras. Well, more like 850,000± over 35 years Remember that Leica only reached S/N 1,000,000 during the M3/M2 production run (1960). https://petapixel.com/2013/09/27/one-millionth-leica-modified-nikon-f3-nasa-camera-auction-westlicht/ But we'll allow for poetic hyperbole. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 21, 2021 Posted November 21, 2021 Hi adan, Take a look here OhOh, future of CL?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
NZDavid Posted November 21, 2021 Share #362 Posted November 21, 2021 1 hour ago, adan said: Well, more like 850,000± over 35 years Remember that Leica only reached S/N 1,000,000 during the M3/M2 production run (1960). https://petapixel.com/2013/09/27/one-millionth-leica-modified-nikon-f3-nasa-camera-auction-westlicht/ But we'll allow for poetic hyperbole. Andy, I've said it a billion times, don't exaggerate! 😉 And yes, we need to beware of statistics because there are all sorts of other factors to consider -- relative cost and income levels over the decades, for example. And yet, I reckon some things don't change and the desire for quality products that are simple to use and that endure, remain. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted November 21, 2021 Share #363 Posted November 21, 2021 14 hours ago, SrMi said: If you click on TL-Lenses, you will be able to select CL or TL cameras. At least the Shop Now button works for CL. For APO-Summicron 35mm the Shop Now button leads to 404. Oh, I know that. The "???" in my post was to say "All seems right there on the website for me...?" G Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZDavid Posted November 21, 2021 Share #364 Posted November 21, 2021 This thread seems to duplicate a lot of "My message to Leica AG in regards to CL!". I wonder if they could be merged? Repeating my main message and it would be great ion Leica is listening: A lot of people need and want a compact, capable Leica with AF and interchangeable lenses. Not too hard, surely? 😀 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Posted November 22, 2021 Share #365 Posted November 22, 2021 You are right. I wish the poster had join the other discussion that was posted before! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruskkyle Posted November 22, 2021 Share #366 Posted November 22, 2021 On 11/19/2021 at 2:28 PM, ruskkyle said: Just spotted this. I think we all know the TL line is finished but it's the first time I've seen the 'flagship' Made in Germany lenses bundled into anything... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Ok, so this is part of a one week sales initiative called Shopping Week, with other deals across the site. Explains the disruption. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpclee Posted November 22, 2021 Share #367 Posted November 22, 2021 Advertisement (gone after registration) 52 minutes ago, ruskkyle said: Ok, so this is part of a one week sales initiative called Shopping Week, with other deals across the site. Explains the disruption. A couple of years ago Dr Kaufman said he didn’t believe the APS C system had reached its potential and it was a matter of stimulating demand / interest in the right way. Perhaps this bundling scheme is their further exploration of how to best market the line. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrozenInTime Posted November 22, 2021 Share #368 Posted November 22, 2021 9 minutes ago, cpclee said: A couple of years ago Dr Kaufman said he didn’t believe the APS C system had reached its potential and it was a matter of stimulating demand / interest in the right way. Perhaps this bundling scheme is their further exploration of how to best market the line. ... or clearing out end of line stock, to that Vogue reading demographic that cares about style and has small change to burn on a Christmas present - thus falls for the Leica allure and 'ultimate set' tagline. At least they make a better purchase than the Hasselblad Lunar: The TL2 with 35/1.4 will be stellar at parties , the 18mm works well with a ski jacket and the 60mm is just the thing for taking insurance photos of your jewelry 🙂 The world does not need a CL2 ... a TL3 lexus would be the must have accessory. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Markey Posted November 22, 2021 Share #369 Posted November 22, 2021 8 minutes ago, FrozenInTime said: ... or clearing out end of line stock, to that Vogue reading demographic that cares about style and has small change to burn on a Christmas present - thus falls for the Leica allure and 'ultimate set' tagline. At least they make a better purchase than the Hasselblad Lunar: The TL2 with 35/1.4 will be stellar at parties , the 18mm works well with a ski jacket and the 60mm is just the thing for taking insurance photos of your jewelry 🙂 The world does not need a CL2 ... a TL3 lexus would be the must have accessory. Yep ... friend of mine did just that . Asked me a few questions about the brand and went out and bought a Q2 "for the aesthetic" . I suspect that accounts for more sales than we imagine but does it make any difference ? Maybe if , as I suspect, that`s a large market . Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
T25UFO Posted November 22, 2021 Share #370 Posted November 22, 2021 On 11/20/2021 at 3:41 PM, ramarren said: I'd love to have a digital Kodak Retina IIc... Such a sweet camera to shoot with! And the folder design is great for cycling ... folds flatter and protects the lens when I drop it into my cycling backpack. G Or one like this . . . Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! I had one of these, the ultimate pocket camera. I guess it's far too small to fit all the digital stuff inside. Shame. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! I had one of these, the ultimate pocket camera. I guess it's far too small to fit all the digital stuff inside. Shame. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/326136-ohoh-future-of-cl/?do=findComment&comment=4317974'>More sharing options...
cpclee Posted November 22, 2021 Share #371 Posted November 22, 2021 44 minutes ago, Michael Markey said: Yep ... friend of mine did just that . Asked me a few questions about the brand and went out and bought a Q2 "for the aesthetic" . I suspect that accounts for more sales than we imagine but does it make any difference ? Maybe if , as I suspect, that`s a large market . i don’t mind this cohort of buyers as i think they make used gear cheaper for me. next time please point your friend to the noctilux for the ultimate chic 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tortuga Posted November 22, 2021 Share #372 Posted November 22, 2021 On one side, the M has no competition. If the camera is the right camera for a user, there is no alternative except for a used M. Leica puts a lot of effort on the M camera line. On the other side, there is a lot of competition for the C-lux and D-lux cameras. Leica rebrands Panasonic cameras. They probably feel the can’t add sufficient value to make it worthwhile to develop their own camera. The L-mount APS-C cameras are somewhere in the middle. Only Leica knows if they are getting the expected return on investment, and if it makes sense to keep investing in them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedruid Posted November 22, 2021 Share #373 Posted November 22, 2021 Well think about it a four year old APSC body alone is $3195 in the US...but you can get it with the 18mm at B+H for $3095, where as Nikon's full frame Z5 is now on sale for $997. Thats a tough market. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Chef Posted November 22, 2021 Share #374 Posted November 22, 2021 9 minutes ago, thedruid said: Well think about it a four year old APSC body alone is $3195 in the US...but you can get it with the 18mm at B+H for $3095, where as Nikon's full frame Z5 is now on sale for $997. Thats a tough market. I look at the "competition" and despair. They are heavy, particularly with FF lenses, and they are carbuncled with a frenzy of buttons all over them. Did none of the designers ever look at what Jonny Ive did for Apple, or what Bill Moggridge did for the whole UI/UX design industry? The simplicity of Leica's UI comes as a relief when you compare it to the messes from Canon/Fuji/Nikon/Panasonic/Sony. It's a shame that simplicity won't continue with a CL2... 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cirke Posted November 22, 2021 Share #375 Posted November 22, 2021 I am selling my CL and T lenses ... 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 22, 2021 Share #376 Posted November 22, 2021 Well, if we look at price development, that does not like like Leica is ditching the camera. It may well be that we will see a temporary holiday reduction, like 2019 which was Covid-carried through. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/326136-ohoh-future-of-cl/?do=findComment&comment=4318210'>More sharing options...
cpclee Posted November 23, 2021 Share #377 Posted November 23, 2021 8 hours ago, thedruid said: Well think about it a four year old APSC body alone is $3195 in the US...but you can get it with the 18mm at B+H for $3095, where as Nikon's full frame Z5 is now on sale for $997. Thats a tough market. Well, that why the various kit combinations exist. An optimistic way of reading this is that if Leica were ready to abandon the line, they'd discount the individual items. By offering kits they hope to motivate sales without pressuring the MSRP of future cameras. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpclee Posted November 23, 2021 Share #378 Posted November 23, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, jaapv said: Well, if we look at price development, that does not like like Leica is ditching the camera. It may well be that we will see a temporary holiday reduction, like 2019 which was Covid-carried through. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! My point exactly. The APS-C / TL line of cameras and lenses were always more experimental. That's apparent in the TL UI and the times when Kaufman or Stefans Daniels talked about the products. I think they are not yet abandoning but are still exploring the market. When the line launched the inherent assumption was the more economic pricing would offset the slowness of lenses and outsourced manufacturing, and perhaps they are now assessing whether they need to rebalance the equation. The latest TL2 + 3 primes kit may be their way to test reception, though I think the CL would make more sense than the TL2 in such a bundle. Technology is moving in a direction that favours continuing development of the APS-C line. If people are hesitant about the format today will they stay hesitant when 50 or 75mp APS-C sensors arrive? The Barnack concept will only become more apparent over time and if I were Leica's management I'd not hastily kill off the format. Same can be said about the SL line. If people don't already think it has basically killed off medium format, won't they begin to see that when 100mp sensors arrive? Advances in sensor technology is redefining the positioning of sensor formats. In the film days 35mm was the easily recommendable consumer format. Today, I'm not so sure. I think I"d recommend APS-C as the starting point format for most people. The challenge with APS-C is not one of performance but perception. I'm sure Leica knows that and the bundling experimentation might just be their way of testing/modifying perception. Edited November 23, 2021 by cpclee 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted November 23, 2021 Share #379 Posted November 23, 2021 15 hours ago, T25UFO said: Or one like this . . . Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! I had one of these, the ultimate pocket camera. I guess it's far too small to fit all the digital stuff inside. Shame. I have one of those too ... the 35GT-E model ... One of the last 35mm cameras I bought new, somewhere about 1999. They're delightful cameras. G 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Posted November 23, 2021 Share #380 Posted November 23, 2021 (edited) I really don’t see how is it possible to “upgrade” TL cameras unless they change the whole design, which wouldn’t be a “TL” any longer. They already removed the flash that came with the original T to free more interior space! The EVF that came with TL is also too expensive and very uncomfortable. Furthermore, there is no need for two different ASP-C. Therefore, if they keep any APS-C, CL would be the most logical system IMHO. They are not limited by the design or the size and they can change and improve it as they go along. So, if there is any continuation of Leica APS-C, I think it would be with CL. Edited November 23, 2021 by Louis 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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