OhOh, future of CL?

[cpclee]

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13 minutes ago, Le Chef said:

The reality is that Fuji and Sony make a nice living out of APSC cameras and lenses. It’s still a valid format that balances IQ and lightness against the significantly heavier full frame cameras and lenses.

Maybe Leica should never have gone there. I also question, with outstanding new full frame cameras from Canon and Nikon, what the real future for Leica looks like beyond the M.

Well it's precisely because Fuji and Sony making a nice living that is pricing out Leica.  Look at it this way.  The Leica X1 was a big seller because Leica was the only maker of APS-C point and shoot in 2009.  But by 2014 they left that market, with X Typ 113 being the last product in that line.  Why?  Because Ricoh came out with the GR and Fuji the X100, both APS-C point and shoots.  Leica's response was to move up-scale with the only FF point and shoot in town, the Q.

The reality is Leica has to go up the quality ladder whenever competition invades its segment with lower priced alternatives.  But as I said, a Q sans lens is more defensible in the long term because of what it can do for M lenses.  It's a product segment less likely for Leica to get chased out of just because the competition has come up with something at half the price.  M means heritage, M means microlenses to ensure performance near sensor periphery, M means special lens profiles, etc.   

[aksclix]

32 minutes ago, Le Chef said:

The reality is that Fuji and Sony make a nice living out of APSC cameras and lenses. It’s still a valid format that balances IQ and lightness against the significantly heavier full frame cameras and lenses.

Maybe Leica should never have gone there. I also question, with outstanding new full frame cameras from Canon and Nikon, what the real future for Leica looks like beyond the M.

I have 100s, R5, S1r, X1D, SL2, A1.. for pictures of people I really only use the SL2.. the 100s next.. the R5 next purely because I love the 28-70 f2... and the 100-500 as well.. 

if Leica were to make significant improvements in an SL3, I'd swap it for my SL2. I LOVE the IQ and the rich beautiful colors SOOC. I mean to use the GFX for portraits as well but its mainly my landscape camera and unfortunately I have not done a whole lot of landscape after getting my 100s.. due to life circumstances recently.. 

Canon and Nikon have really been the only 2 rulers in the SLR world in the pre-mirrorless era I guess.. I don't know if there was a Leica digital SLR (NOT Leica S)? was there? I've been a Leica user only since mid 2020 so I don't know much about their history.. Leica now has more users than ever before with their CL, T and SL series cameras.. so I'd say their future is very much alive and it would survive alongside other camera giants.. how many variants of M do they need? looks like they're only interested in retaining that legacy.. 
 

Edited November 19, 2021 by aksclix

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[cboy]

4 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

I must have missed it - what APS-C L mount is Sigma making?  Its new FP & FP L are full frame, and the sd id a Sigma bayonet mount …

Sigma's DC DN  lenses 16,30,56 & new 18-50 zoom. Aimed to serve the CL/TL line along with other ASPC mounts or for those who wish to take advantage of high MP of FF

 https://nofilmschool.com/sigma-adds-l-mount-trio-mirrorless

 

 

[Le Chef]

“if Leica were to make significant improvements in an SL3, I'd swap it for my SL2.”

For me the weight of the SL2 and the L lenses are way too heavy and clumsy for me to want to cart about. They do not fit the Barnack philosophy of lightness, compactness and simplicity, allied to image quality.

If Leica could hire the spirit of Colin Chapman to design its FF equipment it might be appealing.

In the meantime I will stick with my CL until it breaks and then likely move to Fuji unless Sigma make a CL2 for Leica.

[aksclix]

49 minutes ago, Le Chef said:

“if Leica were to make significant improvements in an SL3, I'd swap it for my SL2.”

For me the weight of the SL2 and the L lenses are way too heavy and clumsy for me to want to cart about. They do not fit the Barnack philosophy of lightness, compactness and simplicity, allied to image quality.

If Leica could hire the spirit of Colin Chapman to design its FF equipment it might be appealing.

In the meantime I will stick with my CL until it breaks and then likely move to Fuji unless Sigma make a CL2 for Leica.

Well, I agree about the weight.. I wish it were much lighter but I still like shooting with it.. 

[adan]

3 hours ago, aksclix said:

I don't know if there was a Leica digital SLR (NOT Leica S)? was there?

Public service announcement: Leica made a digital back (1.3x crop "Digital Module R") that mounted on their last film SLRs - the R8 and R9.

Just before the M8 arrived (2006) - which used essentially the same Kodak CCD sensor.

They also made a computer-tethered studio digital-scanning camera (S1, from which the completely different S2/3 series takes its name) in the 1990s that took R or M lenses in square format.

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/DMR

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/S1

Neither was a significant player at the Canon/Nikon level: ~2200 DMRs, ~160 S1s

We now return to our regularly-scheduled argument programming.

[IkarusJohn]

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3 hours ago, cboy said:

Sigma's DC DN  lenses 16,30,56 & new 18-50 zoom. Aimed to serve the CL/TL line along with other ASPC mounts or for those who wish to take advantage of high MP of FF

 https://nofilmschool.com/sigma-adds-l-mount-trio-mirrorless

 

 

Those are lenses.  As far as I know, neither Panasonic or Sigma are making APS-C L mount cameras.

[cboy]

44 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Those are lenses.  As far as I know, neither Panasonic or Sigma are making APS-C L mount cameras.

I never mentioned an Aspc L mount camera from sigma. I just mentioned only sigma is proving aspc L mount lens support. My point was that no reason for other manufactures to invest into aspc when the market is flooded by cheap FF cameras...

[IkarusJohn]

1 minute ago, cboy said:

I never mentioned an Aspc L mount camera from sigma. I just mentioned only sigma is proving aspc L mount lens support. My point was that no reason for other manufactures to invest into aspc when the market is flooded by cheap FF cameras...

No no, I don’t disagree with you. I was just asking if anyone other than Leica makes an APS-C L mount camera. I should have made myself clear in my post. 

[aksclix]

9 minutes ago, cboy said:

I never mentioned an Aspc L mount camera from sigma. I just mentioned only sigma is proving aspc L mount lens support. My point was that no reason for other manufactures to invest into aspc when the market is flooded by cheap FF cameras...

APS-C cameras and lenses are considerably smaller to their FF counterparts.. so even if there are cheap FF cameras there will always be takers of the crop sensors.. 

also sigma just saw a possibility to extend their already existing line to Leica L and they did.. L just got Lucky I’d say 😌

[cboy]

The form factor of the CL is what many people want in a FF, and given that other manufactures are providing this is proof of an appetite in the market (Sigma Fp, Sony 7c).

Had Leica noticed this then it wouldnt have shot itself in the foot and left loyal CL users in the dark. Theres no reason why there cant be a "pro" Leica L mount body in the SL and  consumer grade FF CL. Much like fuji and their xpro / XT / XH lines. Everyone wins! Lol

However Leica in their hubris instead went for the SL2s instead of catering for CL /TL users with an upgrade. Most likely theyll see to it in the end...eventually.

On a cosmetic note i hope when they do a FF CL2 itll have a design upgrade and remove that ' hump' on top that is a weak reference to the past.

[cboy]

18 minutes ago, aksclix said:

APS-C cameras and lenses are considerably smaller to their FF counterparts.. so even if there are cheap FF cameras there will always be takers of the crop sensors.. 

also sigma just saw a possibility to extend their already existing line to Leica L and they did.. L just got Lucky I’d say 😌

Yes but given the high MP count FF 40/ 60+MP camera now theres an option for  FF crop with ASP-C lenses. Much like SL2 users using tl lenses. 

The argument that the tech is not possible in smaller FF body is clearly not valid anymore. 

[aksclix]

5 minutes ago, cboy said:

Yes but given the high MP count FF 40/ 60+MP camera now theres an option for  FF crop with ASP-C lenses. Much like SL2 users using tl lenses. 

The argument that the tech is not possible in smaller FF body is clearly not valid anymore. 

Body might get smaller like the Sony ones do.. (canon, Nikon, Leica, lumix bodies are not really small..) but FF glass HAS to be bigger to cover the bigger sensor.. this means considerable weight and size difference.. 

[Kim Dahl]

If Leica makes a q2 size L Mount FF.  Shaped as CL with the viewfinder on the side.  47 mp + Good light sensitivity.  Then it's more than ok with me.  The one we could use TL, M and SL lenses.  It would be a monster camera.  Then I would even consider getting a pair of SL lenses for it.  And otherwise use my TL and M lenses.  The price could well be somewhere between SL2s and SL 2 e.g.

[Michael Markey]

Fun thread and its been interesting to read all the possible scenarios but my money is on the fact that they`ll just drop the CL and walk away .

All the companies past history would suggest that is their MO. 

Any other activity other than producing M cameras seems merely to be a distraction.

Maybe it brings in welcome additional income without too many overheads (other than the M they all appear to be just modifications to Panasonic bodies )  I don`t know.

What I do know is that ,for the majority of photographers ,they fall short of what is now expected from a modern camera especially regarding their AF ability.

I would imagine therefore that sales aren`t meeting their targets .

You only have to look at the range of photographic subjects shot on Leica Forums , FlickR ,Facebook and Instagram pages devoted to Leica and compare those to the type of photographic subjects being shot by cameras from other manufacturers .

The majority of Leica shots are scenics and still life only.

As much as I love both my CL and SL2s they do fall short of what I would expect from a camera in 2021.

I`ll most probably stick with both though but would I take the same road again , no I would not  .

 

[cpclee]

59 minutes ago, Kim Dahl said:

If Leica makes a q2 size L Mount FF.  Shaped as CL with the viewfinder on the side.  47 mp + Good light sensitivity.  Then it's more than ok with me.  The one we could use TL, M and SL lenses.  It would be a monster camera.  Then I would even consider getting a pair of SL lenses for it.  And otherwise use my TL and M lenses.  The price could well be somewhere between SL2s and SL 2 e.g.

My point exactly.  And the Q2, ignoring the lens, is actually almost identical dimensions as the CL, so we know a FF L mount body of that size is possible. Pricing-wise, you can infer from their existing models that between 3000 and 4500 is possible for a 25mp model and no more than 5500 for a 47mp model.  

Edited November 19, 2021 by cpclee

[cboy]

1 hour ago, aksclix said:

Body might get smaller like the Sony ones do.. (canon, Nikon, Leica, lumix bodies are not really small..) but FF glass HAS to be bigger to cover the bigger sensor.. this means considerable weight and size difference.. 

Yes, but as I mentioned Leica needs only to have a high megapixels (40-60+) full frame CL to cater for those still using TL lens who are looking for the portability factor as you mentioned. That way one can crop in- camera  to effectively have an ASP-C cropped image of 26+ megapixels whilst still using TL lenses. It's having your cake and eating it too...Everyone wins.

[Enrique Santa]

8 hours ago, cpclee said:

Demise of APS-C bodies (if there is even a demise at all) does not imply demise of APS-C lenses.  It can be a strategy to no longer bifurcate the bodies but continue to bifurcate the lens lines.  If under such a strategy they can make a FF body that is compact enough, than the user experience of mounting APS-C lenses on such a body may not be so different than if they gave us a CL2.

If the SL2-S with its FF sensor, weather sealing/professional build and massive EVF is only $4999, you will have to ask whether a CL2 at $3000 is a sustainable given a future fullframe EVF camera around the size of a Q is almost inevitable.  And if you agree the latter is inevitable would they cram three bodies into a price band of $1999 or would they drop the CL2 and keep the other two?  I say it's very likely what they will do.

As much as I'm a fan of the CL line (I just bought my CL), an L mount Q sans lens would make a more competitively defensible product.  It has the very natural moat of allowing the mounting M lenses uncropped and that alone will fend off low cost competition in ways a CL2 never can.

It's natural for photogs to have wishes, but we shouldn't divorce our wishes from economic and competitive reality.  

I think that you don't understand me. If Leica do what you say, this will be the end of Q and SL line for sure.

[Alberti]

In the mean time while everyone is talking, I walked away with a Lumix S5 . . .

So I did this because I wanted a dedicated EVF-body for the M-lenses. I do not like the Sony, do like the Nikon Z6 in output, but the Pana is closer to my heart.

Yes, a lot to improve reference the S5 to a new FF EVF-M camera:  (I have a few important items) but really, no IBIS needed. Small is more important. The sensor with the back-side illumination is very nice. This is promising. 1) Even better viewfinder, larger mag. and simple: set the light, show a light meter with red triangles just like on the M-camera's; 2) simple standard way to have a focus peep; 3) no pushing around of the focus-area, we are not children; 4) when changing lenses, the curtain automatically drops, also when off and without power. This is more than ergonomics. 5) Then the usual things. Like a good reading of the 6-bits . . . 7) No, just a mock-up video, like on the M240: slight, but not so much everything gets confused. (Marketeers, hold your reigns, you'll never win from the other mirror-less platforms if you want a high score in that area, and really, still camera users do never shoot video's (never, I'll get a lot of comments on that, but look at the threads with video's: just a few.)

Smaller means my wife will accept it.

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Hallo,

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[dkCambridgeshire]

1 hour ago, cpclee said:

My point exactly.  And the Q2, ignoring the lens, is actually almost identical dimensions as the CL, so we know a FF L mount body of that size is possible. Pricing-wise, you can infer from their existing models that between 3000 and 4500 is possible for a 25mp model and no more than 5500 for a 47mp model.  

Lots is possible but please consider whether such a camera would sell ... given that FF L mount lenses are larger than APS-C ICLs  ... How many Leica enthusiasts actually use their relatively very large FF L mount lenses on their CL and TL bodies?  Small manual focus FF M lenses are fine on an APS-C body ... ergonomics become difficult when the AF is added and the lens doubles in size . The Q cameras have succeeded because fixed 28mm lenses are small ... try making a 35mm or 50mm Q type camera ... not possible unless the lens has a 'too small' aperture.   And ... bear in mind with all the foregoing armchair camera designers' suggestions that Leica cannot conjure up new cameras overnight ... they likely take 2 or 3 years ... and Leica do not make e.g. EVF's ... they are made by e.g. Epson.