OhOh, future of CL?

[RM8]

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5 hours ago, ramarren said:

At the time of their introduction, the Barnack "leichte Kamera" was a miniature camera ... not a "full frame" camera at all. It was designed to be a clip-test exposure meter for cinema use. Oskar then basically doubled the length of a 35mm movie camera frame to get a little bit more negative area for better quality in still images... 

I shoot with formats from 8x11 mm to 6x9 cm in film, and with everything from iPhone to Hasselblad 907x in digital. Each format is full frame in its own context, and all render differently.

G

 

If one's interested in the mm:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/35_mm_movie_film#/media/File%3A35mm_film_format_with_optical_soundtrack.svg

[Dopaco]

As others have done, I will give my opinion on these 2 wonderful CL and TL2 cameras. If Leica chooses to say goodbye to the APSC system because it prefers the FF system, it leaves a hole to fill with a powerful little camera, which Sigma is now filling with its powerful little FP L camera, but this camera is not Leica.

Supposedly if I put myself in the mind of a decisive Leica executive and they have already agreed NO to the APSC system, I would take the thousands of aluminum blocks they claim to have from the TL2 system and with minor modifications I would get TL2, FF, with a menu of CL interfaces and TL2, would improve the screen and leave some outputs for optional accessories such as the GPS viewer and others.

There is space for it, see attached photos.

It is my simple opinion without pretending at any time that it can be the best and the true on

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[wda]

Thank you for the link. A very interesting article. It reflects migration from a prime lens background, with little or no experience of the widely used standard zoom lens. That aside, David Farkas writes very entertainingly about his approach to travel photography. 

[IkarusJohn]

From the reviews I have read, the fpL is not quite there yet.  If Leica were to go down that route - full frame, L mount - it would need to distinguish itself from the SL.  I wouldn’t have thought a CL form factor would do it.  Yet the TL2 didn’t catch buyers’ imaginations in sufficient numbers (though being flawed in its first iteration probably killed it at birth), so what would it look like?

I wouldn’t buy the fpL as I’m not convinced by its rolling shutter, and the EVF wrecks the form factor.  I also don’t think it is “resolved” in the way the SL was and the CL (apparently) is.  But, a small(ish) camera that works well with the TL lenses, M lenses and smaller SL lenses (if they eventuate) could fill the gap …

[aksclix]

I find it interesting that the sigma fp-l even gets a mention anywhere.. I honestly don’t know which photographer would buy this.. it’s really meant for a videographer but again why 61megapixels? I would probably buy it if it were $500 though  

[LocalHero1953]

1 hour ago, aksclix said:

I find it interesting that the sigma fp-l even gets a mention anywhere.. I honestly don’t know which photographer would buy this.. it’s really meant for a videographer but again why 61megapixels? I would probably buy it if it were $500 though  

Yes, I'm sure it's meant for videographers. It's a video camera that takes stills - the opposite of Leicas (except the M). Its form factor is intended for mounting in a cage, on a tripod or gimbal, and the absence of an EVF or focal plane shutter is no handicap. It has a heat sink to handle long recording times (and has no daft 30 minute recording limit), and can record direct to an external SSD. The image quality of the stills it takes, though, is excellent as long as they are not of action or in certain artificial lighting.

I wouldn't touch it for stills. I have used it (the fp) extensively for video in the last two years.

Edited November 24, 2021 by LocalHero1953

[SrMi]

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2 hours ago, aksclix said:

I find it interesting that the sigma fp-l even gets a mention anywhere.. I honestly don’t know which photographer would buy this.. it’s really meant for a videographer but again why 61megapixels? I would probably buy it if it were $500 though  

Sigma fp-L is an excellent small FF camera with a beautiful tilting EVF (as an add-on). In most cases, the rolling shutter issue is not an issue, as its readout is probably as fast as in Leica CL or Nikon Z 7. Sigma fp-L is not an action camera, but great for landscapes, stills, etc. 

Unfortunately, many people judge cameras that they have not used for an extended period :(.

[IkarusJohn]

I'm not sure I have the funds, time or interest to test every potential camera over an extended period before I make purchasing decisions.

What I tend to do is to look at what each camera has to offer, read reviews, then try to make an informed decision.  Once I've decided and purchased, I then try to get my head around how that camera works - if I can't, I sell it (numerous Sonys and a Nikon).  Once I'm happy, I then stick with what I have.

I was interested in the fp and fpL, until I read into the detail of the camera and read a couple of reviews, and moved on.  If it didn't have an electronic shutter; if it had a built in evf as good as my SL; if I was confident it played nicely with my M lenses ... if, if, if ... I might have looked further.  It doesn't, so I haven't.  I don't need extended testing to know it isn't for me, and so I shared my perspective.

Edited November 24, 2021 by IkarusJohn

[aksclix]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

Sigma fp-L is an excellent small FF camera with a beautiful tilting EVF (as an add-on). In most cases, the rolling shutter issue is not an issue, as its readout is probably as fast as in Leica CL or Nikon Z 7. Sigma fp-L is not an action camera, but great for landscapes, stills, etc. 

Unfortunately, many people judge cameras that they have not used for an extended period :(.

I judge based on what I've heard from a couple of reviews.. while preference and personal taste is all subjective and there is no right or wrong with that, I do not find the fpL appealing at all.. there is NO grip, it's just a rectangular box with an EVF attachment design that is beyond me.. I think look does matter and ergonomics definitely matters in a camera.. if it were around a 1000 bucks I'd say it's justified but 3k for the package sounds outrageous to me.. anyway, it's really just my opinion.. and am sure there are many that agree and many that don't

 

[cpclee]

https://leicarumors.com/2021/11/24/new-price-drop-the-leica-tl2-with-18-56mm-lens-kit-is-now-2000-off.aspx/

This heavily discounted TL2 combo is going to fuel more speculation.  Interesting they are heavily discounting the TL2 but not (yet) the CL.

[aksclix]

45 minutes ago, cpclee said:

https://leicarumors.com/2021/11/24/new-price-drop-the-leica-tl2-with-18-56mm-lens-kit-is-now-2000-off.aspx/

This heavily discounted TL2 combo is going to fuel more speculation.  Interesting they are heavily discounting the TL2 but not (yet) the CL.

Oh I’ve seen that exact same discount last year too actually.. maybe a holiday special pricing.. 

[LocalHero1953]

8 hours ago, aksclix said:

if it were around a 1000 bucks I'd say it's justified but 3k for the package sounds outrageous to me

"Outrageous"? That's like saying that 3k is an outrageous price for a Leica CL when you're looking for a video camera.

[aksclix]

7 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

"Outrageous"? That's like saying that 3k is an outrageous price for a Leica CL when you're looking for a video camera.

Oh, when it comes to a Leica, there is no debate with pricing… everything is over the top in comparison anyway..

but yea, I do not know much about videography, so maybe it is justified from videographers perspective.. however, can it do something the a7sII can’t? I don’t know.. but am guessing no..

Sony a7rIV is also worth $3K and clearly there is no comparison between the 2 cameras.. a7rIV wins that hands down.. so, i find it really hard to accept that pricing on the fp-L

Edited November 25, 2021 by aksclix

[LocalHero1953]

3 hours ago, aksclix said:

Oh, when it comes to a Leica, there is no debate with pricing… everything is over the top in comparison anyway..

but yea, I do not know much about videography, so maybe it is justified from videographers perspective.. however, can it do something the a7sII can’t? I don’t know.. but am guessing no..

Sony a7rIV is also worth $3K and clearly there is no comparison between the 2 cameras.. a7rIV wins that hands down.. so, i find it really hard to accept that pricing on the fp-L

It can take L-mount lenses. That's one difference.
It is also much smaller and lighter.
And cheaper than the Sony A7riv.
But as you don't know much about videography, there is no reason why you should see value in the Sigma.

Edited November 25, 2021 by LocalHero1953

[StS]

I have absolutely no insight in the matter but imagine a scenario where Leica as a small manufacturer are only getting a limited amount of crucial semiconductors, say, as a scenario, the Maestro processor. Would you launch a new camera in the low to mid-range, absorbing larger amounts of such semiconductors to cover the initial orders or would you delay a launch and use them in (I assume) higher margin products like the Q, M or SL?

I haven't read the full discussion, so apologies if this point has already been discussed.

Stefan

[hoppyman]

On 11/18/2021 at 10:36 AM, hoppyman said:

Just catching up, That's a disturbing thought about the CL line potentially ending. For me my CL is perfect for everyday and travel (Not that travel is easy currently). The little Summicron 23 is great for me. I have the 18-56 also. My main camera is the SL2 and the lenses I have are superb. I shoot in studio primarily. I had sold all of my M equipment previously and now the S system to use the SL2 all of the time in studio.
I am extremely happy with the SL2 for my (studio and available light mainly) purposes while I don't see it as practical for how I use the CL

I guess that we will see what develops from Leica now. Full frame or whatever, for me it needs to be much more compact and light than the SL2 to replace the CL for how I use that.

To add to my first thoughts:
Should a full frame successor to the CL arrive in the future, I see two considerations for me'
It would need to me a much smaller body than the SL2 or what would be the point (unless it was a new design to supersede both the CL &SL2)?
I don't know what is possible there. I recall basically only responding that a better battery life was all that I cared about in the survey from the possible new feature options mentioned.

Peter Karbe has expressed in various presentations that the performance of the Summicron SL lenses is also linked to their volume and weight.
The SL Summicrons are superb in my view but too large to use on my CL or a similar sized body. I am happy with the performance of the Summicron T 23 23mm on the CL for my everyday and travel camera.
 

[Kim Dahl]

My biggest concern if the CL disappears is that Leica does not have a AF camera smaller than the SL2.  Whether they continue APSC or do a minor FF with L Mount is ok.  I think a FF L Mount - in smaller size - will be a hit. Most Laica users I think use them for casual and for vacation and to take on a little trip.  There is a big and heavy SL just not the case.

[SrMi]

A small FF camera cannot replace CL as the FF lenses are typically bigger and heavier than APS-C lenses.

[Kim Dahl]

You may be right about that. But a small FF body with eg + 40 MP - then you can choose to use TL lenses as AF (less MP due to APSC - but ok for a lot of things) and M lenses for the fixed lenses.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[SrMi]

2 minutes ago, Kim Dahl said:

You may be right about that. But a small FF body with eg + 40 MP - then you can choose to use TL lenses as AF (less MP due to APSC - but ok for a lot of things) and M lenses for the fixed lenses.

That is true. Though I never could persuade myself to put an APS-C lens on a FF camera. It feels so wasteful :).