The future of the SL system and why there is no roadmap for lenses

[LocalHero1953]

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11 minutes ago, trickness said:

Thing is, everyone complains about the weight/size of the 50 SL Lux, dealers can’t sell them, resale is terrible. Great lens, but from a sales standpoint, a failure. Theres plenty of moaning here about the SL APO Crons being too heavy! A 75 1.4 SL Lux would likely be even bigger/heavier. Can’t see them ever doing this.

Hmm, my Summilux-SL 50 cost me more than enough second hand recently. Yes, it's a monster as a 50, but it does things other lenses can't.

I would also be interested in a Summilux-SL 75 or 85. After all they make the Noctilux-M 75.

[tomasis7]

Noctilux for SL would weigh 3 kg 😂

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[albireo_double]

Summilux-SL 50 is the Noctilux for the SL system (sort of). I bought one 5-6 years ago after I was impressed with what Joey L was achieving with it, on the original SL601 (I stopped and rewatched his YouTube videos multiple times to figure out what lens he was using ... this was no marketing effort by Leica). It is a special lens but of course, it is heavy and more suitable for what I refer to as "produced" shooting, which I suspect most buyers of SL cameras do not engage in. It is not a lens to take on a family holiday, in the hope of stumbling upon a few images that show nice bokeh. From what I've seen, many pros use SL bodies with M lenses, new and old, to get the various distinctive "looks", save space and combine with their M bodies. In the campaign videos from Namibia, you can see Pat using a Summilux-M 35 on the SL3...not an SL lens...in fact I don't recall any mention of SL lenses in connection with the SL3 campaign. If Leica want to sell more of the specialty SL lenses they could perhaps do more work with the ambassadors and academy guys - to show these lenses in practical application - not just the cat, dog and hedgerow-shooting gentlemen we all know and love but also the young generation fashion and advertising shooters. 

If it were not for GAS and endless boredom during Covid, I'd still be shooting the SL3 now with the 16-35 zoom and Cron SL 75 - this combo covered over 90% of what I shoot.  I am not surprised that Leica hesitate to offer more specialist SL lenses, especially the APO variety.

Btw, Noctilux 0.95 via adapter also renders beautifully and is not that difficult to focus through the EVF - it really is the Noctilux for the SL system. 

[Stuart Richardson]

I think Leica is generally of the mind that once they flesh out a lens lineup, they don't refresh lenses for a long time unless they really need it. They put out 9 S lenses and that was it. Not a single one was ever updated or refreshed. They didn't need to be. The same with the L mount Leica lenses. The only in house lens that does not seem to be extremely well regarded is the 16-35mm, and even then, it is more that it is not as spectacular as some of the other lenses, rather than it being bad. I don't think we will see the 24mm as Leica has stopped producing 24mm lenses in general, and there are a ton of other options. My count is that there are fifteen L mount lenses that cover 24mm. FIFTEEN. That is not including M mount or S lenses. Basically every non-telephoto zoom, and multiple primes from Panasonic and Sigma. Seeing as it is possible to buy both 21mm and 28mm APO Summicrons as well, I think the market for a 24mm APO Summicron is probably small enough that Leica made the decision to use the resources somewhere where they were better spent. I am sympathetic, I like 24mm as a focal length, but I can report that the 24mm 3.5 Sigma is an excellent lens, better than any M mount 24mm I have used. If you want an in house Leica 24mm, the 16-35mm and 24-90mm are both Leica made lenses that cover 24mm.

Edited March 19 by Stuart Richardson

[trickness]

2 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Hmm, my Summilux-SL 50 cost me more than enough second hand recently. Yes, it's a monster as a 50, but it does things other lenses can't.

I would also be interested in a Summilux-SL 75 or 85. After all they make the Noctilux-M 75.

Secondhand these lenses are going for $3000 here in the US. My local dealer has several of them sitting in a drawer and can’t seem to get rid of them. Fantastic lens but every review talks about how huge it is and “why does it need to be this size?”

And as we know, from what Leica said, to do a 50 1.4 autofocus requires a lot of glass, a large barrel and relatively low focus speed. All of which would probably be worse in 75 mm. 

Trust me, you DON’T want a 75 SL Nocti. The lens is a complete pig in M mount - front heavy, big, really the only lens that I think twice about taking with me if I’m going to be out all day. And it’s around the same weight as the 50 Lux SL (which balances better). An 75 SL Nocti would probably make the 50 Lux SL feel like a pancake lens. Plus the 75 Nocti is by no means a hot seller for Leica.

One does have to wonder if all the online chatter and criticism reviews has made Leica gun shy about the SL system. All the complaints about the weight and size of the camera have now resulted in the SL3, which has now lost its unique look for the sake of 100 grams and a flip screen, so we have a camera that looks like a Lumix or a Sony but doesn’t perform as well as either and costs twice as much money. And we have re-bodied Panasonic glass because there was a chorus of “the SL APOs are “gigantic”.

Perhaps it’s a good thing Leica doesn’t give us exactly what we say we want, because it would surely bankrupt them 😂

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 19 by trickness

[LocalHero1953]

12 minutes ago, trickness said:

Secondhand these lenses are going for $3000 here in the US. My local dealer has several of them sitting in a drawer and can’t seem to get rid of them. Fantastic lens but every review talks about how huge it is and “why does it need to be this size?”

And as we know, from what Leica said, to do a 50 1.4 autofocus requires a lot of glass, a large barrel and relatively low focus speed. All of which would probably be worse in 75 mm. 

Trust me, you DON’T want a 75 SL Nocti. The lens is a complete pig in M mount - front heavy, big, really the only lens that I think twice about taking with me if I’m going to be out all day. And it’s around the same weight as the 50 Lux SL (which balances better). An 75 SL Nocti would probably make the 50 Lux SL feel like a pancake lens. Plus the 75 Nocti is by no means a hot seller for Leica.

Trust you? No. You don't know why I like the Summilux-SL 50 and how I use it, and why I could use a Summilux-SL 75 or 85. I use the 50 as a portrait lens and I would use a 75 for the same purpose - perhaps instead. I regularly use the 24-90 and 90-280 and, because I am using them in sessions, not carrying them around, their weight is not an issue. I know others with the Noctilux-M 75 who are happy with it - for the same purpose, and often on the SL. If you bought it to carry around with you all day, I'm not surprised you have a problem with it.

[TeleElmar135mm]

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vor 6 Stunden schrieb MediaFotografie:

…and violà, another new 50mm lens for L mount; nobody can count them…

https://photorumors.com/2024/03/18/sigma-to-announde-a-new-50mm-f-1-2-dg-dn-art-lens-for-sony-e-and-leica-l-mount/

... I wait for a 42 - it's the "Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, great photos and Everything"

[trickness]

55 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Trust you? No. You don't know why I like the Summilux-SL 50 and how I use it, and why I could use a Summilux-SL 75 or 85. I use the 50 as a portrait lens and I would use a 75 for the same purpose - perhaps instead. I regularly use the 24-90 and 90-280 and, because I am using them in sessions, not carrying them around, their weight is not an issue. I know others with the Noctilux-M 75 who are happy with it - for the same purpose, and often on the SL. If you bought it to carry around with you all day, I'm not surprised you have a problem with it.

Yeah, well whatever you think you want to use it for they’re not gonna make it. You might as well wish for a pony too while you’re at it.

And I don’t have a problem with the 75 Nocti. I do carry it around with me all day and use it frequently on the street. But what you or I may do with this specific lens really is inconsequential in terms of whether Leica would produce an even bigger and heavier version of this lens, for an even smaller group of customers.

Edited March 19 by trickness

[LocalHero1953]

2 minutes ago, trickness said:

Yeah, well whatever you think you want to use it for they’re not gonna make it. You might as well wish for a pony too while you’re at it.

And I don’t have a problem with the 75 Nocti. I do carry it around with me all day and use it frequently on the street. But what you or I may do with this specific lens really is inconsequential in terms of whether Leica would produce an even bigger and heavier version of this lens, for an even smaller group of customers.

Some posts tell you more about the writer than what they've written about.

[albireo_double]

17 minutes ago, trickness said:

“why does it need to be this size?” 

The expensive M35 Apo is tiny. Not 100% of the performance of the SL35APO but close. The SL lens needs to accommodate an AF motor, so needs to be bigger...ok. Then maybe each of the Apo M lenses needs to be hand-polished by elves and Leica can't offer it an SL version at an acceptable price level for SL lenses...ok. But one can't escape the suspicion that the SL lens could have been smaller, even with AF. But Leica decided long ago to use the same barrel for all the SL Apo Crons. This has some synergies for the user (filter and cap sizes, pouch sizes) and for Leica in manufacturing. But of course, it makes the user wonder if they want to buy all the SL Apo Crons - I normally wouldn't take more than two with me to a shoot. I suspect other people have it similar - maybe get the 35/75 or 28/50 combos and use the smaller M or Sigma lenses for the less used focal lengths. Logical but not great for the sales of SL lenses.

33 minutes ago, TeleElmar135mm said:

... I wait for a 42 - it's the "Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, great photos and Everything"

In the meantime you can get the Sigma 40mm 1.4DG in L mount. Gets you very close to answering the "ultimate question that nobody remembers any more". 

[TeleElmar135mm]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb albireo_double:

In the meantime you can get the Sigma 40mm 1.4DG in L mount. Gets you very close to answering the "ultimate question that nobody remembers any more". 

Sorry, but don't panic: No way - only 42 works as said in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy  Douglas Adams - wrapped in a towel ... 

[la1402]

18 minutes ago, albireo_double said:

... But Leica decided long ago to use the same barrel for all the SL Apo Crons. This has some synergies for the user (filter and cap sizes, pouch sizes) and for Leica in manufacturing.

That is also why they can offer them at such a low price 🤣

[trickness]

38 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Some posts tell you more about the writer than what they've written about.

Sorry if you're offended by what I wrote.

We're on a thread thats suggesting Leica has somehow abandoned or underserved the SL line and left gaps and all anyone can seem to mention to support this perspective is a desire for lenses that are either longer versions of commercial failures or truly niche products. 

It's fine to want what we want without any consideration to practical realities. I recently had to explain to my child why even though he really wants a pony, he's not going to find one in our two bedroom apartment anytime soon.

And he really shouldn't be any more disappointed at me or the pony than anyone should be about not getting a 75 SL Noctilux or an SL pancake lens.

 

 

Edited March 19 by trickness

[Luke_Miller]

1 hour ago, trickness said:

Secondhand these lenses are going for $3000 here in the US. My local dealer has several of them sitting in a drawer and can’t seem to get rid of them. Fantastic lens but every review talks about how huge it is and “why does it need to be this size?

While I am now fully vested in the Leica SL system, I still maintain my Nikon roots.  In the Nikon mirrorless world their premium primes all outweigh the Leica SL primes.  The Nikon 58mm f0.95 weighs in at an astounding 2000 grams and is manual focus only.  Obviously each maker has different design priorities.  Leica going for image quality and Nikon for maximum aperture.  Somehow Nikon shooters are able to deal with the size and weight.  I don't think they are in better physical shape than Leica SL shooters, but rather each group is purchasing according to their preference and are willing to accept the compromises involved.  So when it comes to size and weight one could make the argument that, compared to Nikon, the SL system is the lighter weight option. 😃

[Miltz]

Well if you combine all the Sigma, Leica, and Panasonic lenses there’s lots of options. The biggest issue is the body is $7,000. That’s Medium format territory. It’s hard to excuse $7,000 without any lenses for work. Right now the Nikon ZII is selling for $2300. With $7,000 you can have an entire complete system. The Nikon sensor is also excellent. I love my Q3 and would love to replace my Nikon gear with the SL, but the price point is just too high for what you get. They don’t even give you a charger for the battery for $7,000. Crazy.

[trickness]

14 minutes ago, Luke_Miller said:

While I am now fully vested in the Leica SL system, I still maintain my Nikon roots.  In the Nikon mirrorless world their premium primes all outweigh the Leica SL primes.  The Nikon 58mm f0.95 weighs in at an astounding 2000 grams and is manual focus only.  Obviously each maker has different design priorities.  Leica going for image quality and Nikon for maximum aperture.  Somehow Nikon shooters are able to deal with the size and weight.  I don't think they are in better physical shape than Leica SL shooters, but rather each group is purchasing according to their preference and are willing to accept the compromises involved.  So when it comes to size and weight one could make the argument that, compared to Nikon, the SL system is the lighter weight option. 😃

I think all of it just goes to show that they're really no perfect camera system - just ones with compromises that we can either choose to live with, or not. I'm quite happy with the SL APOs and my SL2, and I quite enjoy using adapted lenses. I've probably never been happier with a camera system than the SL, even though it isn't perfect.

[albireo_double]

5 minutes ago, Miltz said:

The biggest issue is the body is $7,000. That’s Medium format territory. 

That's Fuji and Hasselblad medium format territory, not Leica 😄. 

[BernardC]

7 minutes ago, Miltz said:

Well if you combine all the Sigma, Leica, and Panasonic lenses there’s lots of options. The biggest issue is the body is $7,000. That’s Medium format territory. It’s hard to excuse $7,000 without any lenses for work. Right now the Nikon ZII is selling for $2300.

The Panasonic S5ii fills the role of "entry level 24MP with good video" in L-mount, and it sells for similar prices to the Z6ii. Nikon will sell you a Z9 if you want more pixels in a "pro-level" body.

You can certainly make a case for buying an entry-level body with high-end lenses. That's a personal choice. All full-frame systems give you the choice.

[Planetwide]

This conversation is really about Leica's development & marketing of the SL system, or lack thereof. If the systems future is in doubt, then that lies solely at the feet of Leica. The stalling of APO lens development, and introductions, has damaged the reputation of the system to the point of this discussion. Debating whether a particular lens is needed, is really about personal choice. Personally, I would use a 24mm APO lens, but others wouldn't. Most manufacturers make this focal length for a reason, and I am pretty sure that it would sell. i think that bringing out the 21mm first was a smart decision, but the 24mm needs to be announced as well. Leica needs to show commitment to the system beyond rebadging.

Given the snails pace of new products, up until recently, we now have to ask: is Leica resource contained? Is production allocated to a more profitable line? If the answer is yes, then Leica needs to research why the SL line is poorly received, and fix that.

One of Leica's issues, is price, but it's not about the price being too high, it's about the perception of the system and its quality. At the prices Leica charges, people expect the best: APO lenses, exceptional zooms, and a continuous "in house" lens development cycle. As many have mentioned, it's about the lenses, and rebadged lenses are a marketing mistake, and my guess is that they didn't sell well. It's as if they are repeating the same mistakes that were made during the R system. Leica cannot compete with Canon, Nikon, or even Sigma, but they can be the absolute best when it comes to lenses, and that is where the SL system needs to go to survive - IMHO.

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[trickness]

18 minutes ago, Planetwide said:

This conversation is really about Leica's development & marketing of the SL system, or lack thereof. If the systems future is in doubt, then that lies solely at the feet of Leica. The stalling of APO lens development, and introductions, has damaged the reputation of the system to the point of this discussion. Debating whether a particular lens is needed, is really about personal choice. Personally, I would use a 24mm APO lens, but others wouldn't. Most manufacturers make this focal length for a reason, and I am pretty sure that it would sell. i think that bringing out the 21mm first was a smart decision, but the 24mm needs to be announced as well. Leica needs to show commitment to the system beyond rebadging.

Given the snails pace of new products, up until recently, we now have to ask: is Leica resource contained? Is production allocated to a more profitable line? If the answer is yes, then Leica needs to research why the SL line is poorly received, and fix that.

One of Leica's issues, is price, but it's not about the price being too high, it's about the perception of the system and its quality. At the prices Leica charges, people expect the best: APO lenses, exceptional zooms, and a continuous "in house" lens development cycle. As many have mentioned, it's about the lenses, and rebadged lenses are a marketing mistake, and my guess is that they didn't sell well. It's as if they are repeating the same mistakes that were made during the R system. Leica cannot compete with Canon, Nikon, or even Sigma, but they can be the absolute best when it comes to lenses, and that is where the SL system needs to go to survive - IMHO.

They just released a brand new SL3 two weeks ago - so they need to release a 24mm lens to show commitment to the platform? 😂

The comedy never stops on this forum