Choosing a compact 28mm lens

[david strachan]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I have the Voigtlander 28mm f3.5 too.  It's a beauty, well built, small and great pics...just add a screw to M mount adapter.

[Capuccino-Muffin]

1 hour ago, david strachan said:

I have the Voigtlander 28mm f3.5 too.  It's a beauty, well built, small and great pics...just add a screw to M mount adapter.

I had a friend who was very eager to show me his series of about 100 11x14 darkroom prints, about his trip to china. He used this lens for all the shots.

After the 10th print I started noticing the lens’ presence overshadowing the subject. By the 20th print, the subject was the lens, not the images: soft corners starring from 1/2 off the center and all the way to the corners. Simply put, bad quality. The voigtlander 21mm was even worse, starting from 1/3 off the center. 
 

Sure, digital can be corrected, but film doesn’t lie. For me, voigtlander lenses are a big no-no. Especially the first generation.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Capuccino-Muffin]

3 hours ago, jdlaing said:

One doesn’t beat the other. It’s just different. It doesn’t have to always be a contest.

Who says it’s a contest? 
 

In the context where a elmarit does everything well, a summicron does everything better. Not a contest, just a fact.
 

That was also Leica’s goal, I believe. Take a summicron, dumb it down to make it 1000$ cheaper. And they ended up with a elmarit, what else??

Simple, really.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Capuccino-Muffin

[romualdo]

Another shout out for the Elmarit 28 ASPH (V1) - love it's compactness/ergonomics & quality build & final product (images)

But, my new addition, a 28 f3.5 Nikkor LTM (basically the same size as the original 28 Summaron but two stops ahead) is getting more attention at present

I gave up looking for an original Summaron 28

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[250swb]

2 hours ago, Capuccino-Muffin said:

I had a friend who was very eager to show me his series of about 100 11x14 darkroom prints, about his trip to china. He used this lens for all the shots.

After the 10th print I started noticing the lens’ presence overshadowing the subject. By the 20th print, the subject was the lens, not the images: soft corners starring from 1/2 off the center and all the way to the corners. Simply put, bad quality. The voigtlander 21mm was even worse, starting from 1/3 off the center. 
 

Sure, digital can be corrected, but film doesn’t lie. For me, voigtlander lenses are a big no-no. Especially the first generation.

It may be a problem with the individual lens then. I've used the 28mm f3.5 on film and digital and it's the 28mm I use far more than my Summicron. It's as sharp across the field as a modern Summicron if the widest and smallest apertures are avoided, but even then the quality is comparable to some of Leica's older 28mm lenses at similar apertures. As for your description of the 21mm Skopar it's certainly not as good as the 28mm, but other than that I don't recognise anything you say about it. Is it perhaps something to do with the Leica fetish of shooting with a lens wide open and not at an optimal aperture?

[Steven]

10 hours ago, Dennis said:

The 28 Elmarit was my first Leica lens ever. It's just outstanding. I traded for a 35 because I don't to enjoy framing and using a 0.72x with a 28mm FL. But, wow.

I remember I was so impressed by the 3D pop of this pic. It's just me, or it's there?

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

It was just a snapshot of a family. But look the almost SOOC result. When I see results like this, It's when I think the need of bokeh and shallow DoP is overwhelmed. To be honest, I never appreciated in the past a 3d pop like this with a 28mm at only f/2.8. Until I saw the Elmarit IQ.

  

It's not just you. The 3D pop is actually quite crazy here. This photo makes me want the elmarit. 

[Steven]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

9 hours ago, 250swb said:

The Color-Skopar is indeed one of the best, and one of the smallest, 28mm lenses you could find. But as you say it is very rare and unusual in that it's made from brass and not aluminium like many other Voigtlander lenses, so the construction is above par, not that Voigtlander do a bad job anyway. It's reviewed on this page

https://cameraquest.com/voigtlen.htm

Interesting. Never looked into this one. There are quite a few on Ebay, black or silver, for under 700 euros. Does not seem that hard to get at the moment of this message, and way more affordable than my other current options... 

[Steven]

2 hours ago, Capuccino-Muffin said:

Who says it’s a contest? 
 

In the context where a elmarit does everything well, a summicron does everything better. Not a contest, just a fact.
 

That was also Leica’s goal, I believe. Take a summicron, dumb it down to make it 1000$ cheaper. And they ended up with a elmarit, what else??

Simple, really.

By that logic, my Summilux does everything better than the Summicron. 

[Steven]

1 hour ago, romualdo said:

Another shout out for the Elmarit 28 ASPH (V1) - love it's compactness/ergonomics & quality build & final product (images)

But, my new addition, a 28 f3.5 Nikkor LTM (basically the same size as the original 28 Summaron but two stops ahead) is getting more attention at present

I gave up looking for an original Summaron 28

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Nice setup... 

This thread started with a huge movement in favour for the Summaron, but the latest pages are pushing flipping things around and pushing in favour of the Elmarit. At this point, if I project myself in the future, I do not see how I will be able to resist both. If I get the Elmarit, I know I won't get the Summaron out of my head and vice versa. I might need to follow an advice I received many times on this forum: get both, use them for a couple months, sell one. 

[pippy]

6 hours ago, Capuccino-Muffin said:

The summicron beats the elmarit any day. Let’s face it, the elmarit is a budget lens next to the summicron. Even in the imaging department, it harsh.

Steven doesn't want the Summicron. Perhaps you missed that bit of information in this thread?

P.

[FrozenInTime]

28 minutes ago, pippy said:

Steven doesn't want the Summicron. Perhaps you missed that bit of information in this thread?

P.

Which means it's an emotional choice.

The MTF charts of the Elmarit, Summaron and Summilux are remarkably close at f5.6 - all three look good to 12mm then suffer from loss of fine contrast beyond 15mm  radius.

If you want that fine detail all the way to the corners, the Summicron wins.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited June 9, 2021 by FrozenInTime

[pippy]

3 minutes ago, FrozenInTime said:

Which means it's an emotional choice...

And?

P.

[Steven]

5 minutes ago, FrozenInTime said:

Which means it's an emotional choice.

The MTF charts of the Elmarit, Summaron and Summilux are remarkably close at f5.6 - all three look good to 12mm then suffer from loss of fine contrast beyond 15mm  radius.

If you want that fine detail all the way to the corners, the Summicron wins.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

I'm not sure it's an emotional choice, per se. What I know for sure is that it's not an MTF choice, as it never is, for me. 

I have chosen as my main 28 the Summilux. It's not so much emotional. I need f1.4. I also enjoy very much the rendering of the Lux at F1.4, more than the one of the cron at F2, that's true. 

Buying a Cron next to a Lux does not seem very logical to me. They are the closest in size, in price, in aperture. I wanted something a little different, as a second lens to complement it. 

I want something much smaller, that's the main driver. Therefore, the Elmarit of the Summaron. The summaron for the "character", or the Elmarit for the versatility. 

Edited June 9, 2021 by Steven

[Steven]

9 minutes ago, FrozenInTime said:

If you want that fine detail all the way to the corners, the Summicron wins.

I don't at all ! But thanks for sharing the charts. 

[lct]

18 minutes ago, Steven said:

I want something much smaller, that's the main driver. Therefore, the Elmarit of the Summaron. The summaron for the "character", or the Elmarit for the versatility. 

A good reason to get both. Problem solved . I mean if i were in your shoes as f/5.6 is definitely too slow for me. I'm tempted by this little gem but i would not use it that much and i'm not a true collector. YMMV.   

Edited June 9, 2021 by lct

[a.noctilux]

1 hour ago, Steven said:

Nice setup... 

This thread started with a huge movement in favour for the Summaron, but the latest pages are pushing flipping things around and pushing in favour of the Elmarit. At this point, if I project myself in the future, I do not see how I will be able to resist both. If I get the Elmarit, I know I won't get the Summaron out of my head and vice versa. I might need to follow an advice I received many times on this forum: get both, use them for a couple months, sell one. 

post #4 😉

then go ahaid ...

[Cobram]

23 hours ago, Cobram said:

 

Anyway at the end I expect that by the end of 2021 we will read your comments and hopefuly also see your photos related to Cron, Elmarit and Summaron...😋👍

Don't have anything to add. 

[ianman]

1 hour ago, Steven said:

I'm not sure it's an emotional choice, per se. What I know for sure is that it's not an MTF choice, as it never is, for me. 

I have chosen as my main 28 the Summilux. It's not so much emotional. I need f1.4. I also enjoy very much the rendering of the Lux at F1.4, more than the one of the cron at F2, that's true. 

Buying a Cron next to a Lux does not seem very logical to me. They are the closest in size, in price, in aperture. I wanted something a little different, as a second lens to complement it. 

I want something much smaller, that's the main driver. Therefore, the Elmarit of the Summaron. The summaron for the "character", or the Elmarit for the versatility. 

What? You don't RTFMFT like all Leica uses should!?

The obvious thing for you to do is get a loaner of each. I think you may find that the Summaron @ f/5.6 is plenty fast enough with your M10 (I've used it in low light situations on the M9) and the lack of shallow DoF will be largely compensated by it's character. Having seen some of your work, I am quite confident that you'll love the Summaron. But I don't know the Elmarit at all so the same could be said about that too.... not helping much am I

 

[IkarusJohn]

2 hours ago, Steven said:

It's not just you. The 3D pop is actually quite crazy here. This photo makes me want the elmarit. 

Well, let’s see - subjects at, what, 2 metres?  Everything else at infinity.  Just about any lens would “pop” in those circumstances.  The true test would be the same image taken with your Summilux, a Summaron and an Elmarit, all at f/5.6.  You would then see comparable character.  Any other comparison is meaningless.

I don’t wish to appear harsh, but the only lens you can compare at f/1.4 is another Summilux.  More critically, any comparison with a Summicron or Elmarit is also of limited use, as your Summilux is also very good at f/2, f/2.8 and f/5.6.  It’s not the widest aperture that is the determining factor, in my view.  IF you read Erwin Puts, his view was typically that most Leica lenses were best at f/4 …

So returning to your questioin, what are you looking for that your Summilux doesn’t give you, or rather, what are you adding - it’s not about aperture.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[pippy]

15 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

...So returning to your question, what are you looking for that your Summilux doesn’t give you, or rather, what are you adding - it’s not about aperture...

As Steven has addressed this aspect several times - including in the very first post and most recently in post #93 just above - I will quote a few of his own words;

"...I need to be lighter......I am now looking for a second, more compact length, for daily carry...."

"...I want something much smaller, that's the main driver..."

Philip.

Edited June 9, 2021 by pippy