APS-C future strategy

[scott kirkpatrick]

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I don't think this will happen soon.  If there were a CL-P in six months, I'd be happy with a decent joystick for back focus, some improvement in the EVF and one extra programmable button, maybe in front.  Stay with 24 MPx, no IBIS.  But if I were planning a real CL2 for Christmas 2020, I would pull together 36 MPx and/or IBIS, EVF and joystick button improvements, and maybe one more lens for the safari/bif crowd.  Maike, how about it?  If the size in hand increases with IBIS, leave it out.

[jaapv]

7 hours ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

What are the areas that would make a CL2 most attractive to what seem to be mostly happy CL owners?  IBIS?  More MPx? A less restricted UI?

no more wandering focus point and increased weather sealing. And a 100-400 TL Vario-Elmar with OIS.

 

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[rob_w]

For me the APS-C future strategy from Leica is not about the CL body but about developing it into a system with accessories and a proper lens roadmap.  On all these matters there is silence.  Okay.  But it would be good to hear some statements of intent and further enrichment from Leica.   I love my CL today but I do wonder if Leica are going to build on it.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, rob_w said:

For me the APS-C future strategy from Leica is not about the CL body but about developing it into a system with accessories and a proper lens roadmap.  

+1.  I bought the Leica T 5 years ago and every lens that has been added since has been of good to very good to excellent (Summilux-TL 35mm) quality... but not enough lenses have been added and the last 3 years only 1 lens was added...  Although I would appreciate IBIS, better high ISO, a better EVF, etc. it's mainly the native APS-C lens line-up that is lacking.  Most likely or hopefully the CL2 will come accompanied with 1 or 2 new lenses, but that really means nothing if Leica then goes dormant again for 3-4 years.  A realistic and proper lens roadmap would be very much appreciated.

Edited November 3, 2019 by Guest

[Vel]

I feel that there's a lot of bagging on the T/TL/TL2 line on this forum since it was merged with the CL. I'd just like to add my experience as a counterpoint to the prevailing views.

I bought a T after absolutely falling in love with its design and build quality. It's unlike any other camera on the market and is truly breathtaking to me. I ended up purchasing 3 brand new TL lenses: 35mm 1.4, 55-135mm and 11-23mm. So in the sense of Leica appealing to a younger audience, it certainly worked on me. I don't need an EVF and I'm happy with the touch screen.

I did not upgrade to a TL2 because the T is sufficient for me, but I would be very disappointed if Leica does not continue the TL line. I'd likely buy a TL3 as it's likely to have some serious improvements over my T.

Regarding the rest of Leica's cameras, they certainly have a distinct look and conservative design, but they are not breathtaking. I scoffed when I first saw the CL, how could Leica produce something so ugly after the T line? I've tempered this opinion over time and I can appreciate the CL design more now as part of the conservative Leica pedigree, but it lacks character outside of that (to me).

[lct]

Haha i also scoffed when i first saw the CL but i got used to its Barnack design and it doesn't look like a smartphone at least . Now i don't see why the TL line would be discontinued if there is enough demand for it. 

[bags27]

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A few stops of IBIS would be very, very nice.

I can't see a much bigger EVF or battery without changing the size of the camera. And, if they do that, they might as well go to FF, and that's an SL2 lite.

[jaapv]

Nor can I see IBIS without increasing camera size. Possibly if it were digital.

[Einst_Stein]

16 hours ago, SlowDriver said:

+1.  I bought the Leica T 5 years ago and every lens that has been added since has been of good to very good to excellent (Summilux-TL 35mm) quality... but not enough lenses have been added and the last 3 years only 1 lens was added...  Although I would appreciate IBIS, better high ISO, a better EVF, etc. it's mainly the native APS-C lens line-up that is lacking.  Most likely or hopefully the CL2 will come accompanied with 1 or 2 new lenses, but that really means nothing if Leica then goes dormant again for 3-4 years.  A realistic and proper lens roadmap would be very much appreciated.

I thought so too. But, TL/CL actually has offered similar prime lenses as SL, although the zoom offerings are slower.

In the prime category,

Sl has 35mm/f2, 

 

Edited November 4, 2019 by Einst_Stein

[Einst_Stein]

16 hours ago, SlowDriver said:

+1.  I bought the Leica T 5 years ago and every lens that has been added since has been of good to very good to excellent (Summilux-TL 35mm) quality... but not enough lenses have been added and the last 3 years only 1 lens was added...  Although I would appreciate IBIS, better high ISO, a better EVF, etc. it's mainly the native APS-C lens line-up that is lacking.  Most likely or hopefully the CL2 will come accompanied with 1 or 2 new lenses, but that really means nothing if Leica then goes dormant again for 3-4 years.  A realistic and proper lens roadmap would be very much appreciated.

I thought so too. But, TL/CL actually has offered similar prime lenses as SL, although the zoom offerings are slower.

In the prime category,

        SL has 35mm/f2, 50mm/f2, 50mm/f1.4, 75mm/f2, 90mm/f2

        CL has 18mm/f2.8, 23mm/f2, 35mm/f1.4,  60mm/f2.8. 

But in the zoom category, SL has 16-35mm/f3.5-4.5, 24-90mm/f2.8-4, 90-280mm/f2.8-4; but the equivalent TL zooms are all f3.5-4.5.

The M lens family are far richer.  Erwin Puts in his farewell Leica post saying Leica ism putting M series in the side lane, I don't know what he is talking about.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Einst_Stein

[tom0511]

Am ‎03‎.‎11‎.‎2019 um 10:15 schrieb scott kirkpatrick:

What are the areas that would make a CL2 most attractive to what seem to be mostly happy CL owners?  IBIS?  More MPx? A less restricted UI?

IBIS!!, weather proof, a little better grip/form, an external grip which allows to change battery and SD card without removing it. I do not need more MP in a DX-sensor camera. The top display could be brighter. Overall I think the CL is allready a really good camera.

[tom0511]

I could live without IBIS, but then Leica should offer a IS-version of the 55-135 please

[ramarren]

An interesting realization came to me as the Daylight Savings Time to Standard Time switchover came yesterday: At one time in the not so distant past, I'd have to hunt up as many as five different digital cameras to reset the time on. This time, there is only one digital camera to attend to: my Leica CL. While I still have my Olympus E-M1, I use it so infrequently now that I don't leave the battery in it and always set the date and time (and all the configuration options...!) when I go to use it. Same for the E-1. And my Light L16 is packaged up to be sold now. All the other digital cameras are gone. 

The present Leica CL really has become the camera that does everything I need with a digital camera for the moment. 

[nicci78]

On 11/4/2019 at 2:13 PM, tom0511 said:

I could live without IBIS, but then Leica should offer a IS-version of the 55-135 please

Maybe better to offer an IBIS CL2, than making all present TL lenses obsolete.

[julian m]

I’m still a huge fan of my T. I’m finally giving in and upgrading to the TL2, if only for USB-C (one fewer cable to carry) and a teeny bit more dynamic range.

I don’t really care for a viewfinder. It’s not how I grew up with digital cameras and I’m just really used to shooting via the screen. Doesn’t bother me.

I don’t really want full-frame, if only because it inherently means larger lenses and more weight. I’m happy to trade a bit of bokeh and image quality for more portable lenses.

Integrated GPS would be great so I don’t have to plug in the viewfinder only for that.

Would love the addition of IBIS, especially now that Leica finally did it on the SL2!

Edited November 6, 2019 by julian m

[ianforber]

Very tempted by the CL but not so far bought one because I’ve got so used to the excellent IBIS in my Olympus EM5.2. Also, I’m mainly a landscape guy and the articulated screen allows me to use a small and light Sirui travel tripod when composing long exposures without having to stoop. CL not really optimised for landscapes I assume (but open to being convinced otherwise)

Ian

[ynp]

On 11/3/2019 at 12:15 PM, scott kirkpatrick said:

What are the areas that would make a CL2 most attractive to what seem to be mostly happy CL owners?  IBIS?  More MPx? A less restricted UI?

For me it’s a joystick, like the SL has. 

[Jonathan Hodder]

The TL and CL have their own distinctive designs; the former modern and futuristic while the latter classic and familiar. Some people have suggested that integrating an EVF into the TL line would muddy the distinction between that and the CL. However, I think there is a way to improve upon the two camera bodies while at the same time, staying true to their respective design philosophies. 

For the TL3: integrate the EVF, but keep the same overall aluminium design, buttonless screen, and customisable top twin dials. This way, the TL remains modern, and the interface is fully customisable and akin to a smartphone. 

For the CL, maintain the same body but have dedicated, engraved top dials for aperture and shutter speed, just like the X. In this manner, the CL2 is even truer to the Leica principle of simplicity and reliability - something which I suspect most of the CL owners would appreciate. 

Would be lovely to see a pair of 23mm and 90mm Summiliux lenses as well...

[nicci78]

15 hours ago, Jonathan Hodder said:

For the CL, maintain the same body but have dedicated, engraved top dials for aperture and shutter speed, just like the X. In this manner, the CL2 is even truer to the Leica principle of simplicity and reliability - something which I suspect most of the CL owners would appreciate. 

Engraving dials is not desirable. There are too many shutter speeds available. And potentially too many aperture values. 

Just take the dumb engraved speed dial of Q2 : impossible to set manually a higher speed than 1/2000th ! Yes it is useful sometimes to shoot very very bright stuff with wide aperture. You have to be in P mode and hope it will choose a fast enough speed. What a bummer. 
And you cannot set an in between speed. 

I love the dual unmarked dial with function buttons within. It is the trademark of CL. Please don’t take that away. 
It is just like the superior 4 software buttons of SL, gone for idiot proof 3 engraved buttons. 
Please don’t break an awesome user interface for the few people too reluctant to learn. 

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[nicci78]

News from resellers = no news about any future TL lenses ! Which is very unfortunate for the future of the system. They have no information. Radio silence from Leica. 
 

What they know : SL lenses first. 3 more to come in 2020 (28mm) and 2021 (21 & 24) only ! 

So if I am very pessimistic, there will be no new TL lenses before 2022 😅

I am very disappointed by Leica for leaving us with a half thought system.

CL & TL2 desperately need : 

- fast wide angle primes  : 14mm f/2

- a very long OIS zoom 100-300mm f/4-5,6

 - a fast portrait lens : 50mm f/1.2 should do the trick 

- a kind of pro zoom : 16-60mm f/2.8-4 OIS

APO-Summicron-SL are still too big for CL and not particularly fast. SL zooms are silly big on such diminutive body