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nicci78

APS-C future strategy

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What do you think will be the best APS-C strategy for Leica ? 

APS-C is not doomed by the way. 
It will always outsell 24x36 by far. Right now the market is split between 15% for full frame & 85% crop sensors (by far mostly APS-C then m4/3)

Manufacturers believed that in the next 5 years, the mix will settle to 30% (full frame) vs 65% (APS-C) vs 5% (all other format m4/3 and MF) 

So Leica needs to stay invested into APS-C. 


I think that Leica can replicate in 2020, what they have done in 2019 for the APS-C market. 

1. In March 2020 resurrection of X line with X3 : 24MP - 23mm f/2.8 - OIS - no weather sealing - no EVF - Maestro II - Q & CL battery  

CL + Elmarit-TL 18 was never a good replacement of X2. Too big , not 35mm equivalent. And twice as expensive  

 

2. In November 2020 launch of the CL & TL2 replacement CL2 with BSI 26MP or 36MP - IBIS - weather sealing - EVF 3.6M dots - Maestro III - SL, Q2, SL2 battery  - magnesium body - heavier than CL  

No TL3. It has to go for a potential X3 

Launching an as small as possible X3 with current 24MP will permits to sell the cheapest made in Germany Leica. And fulfil any sensor volume requirements with Sony semiconductor. 
 

26MP BSI APS-C sensor exists in Sony catalog. Currently only used by Fujifilm. 
36MP BSI APS-C sensor also exists. But nobody used it yet.
I suspect that 2020 will the 36MP year for APS-C. Canon started the pixel war with its M60/90D 32.5MP cameras. 

 

Of course Leica can launch in 2021 a lame update of CL with no IBIS, no weather sealing and still 24MP. But why even bother if it is the case. 
 

So what’s your forecast about APS-C and Leica ? 

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I think an X3 will need to have more MP and a wide lens to mimic the the functionality of the Q. Say 28 mm  equ. (collapsible)  and 36 MP.

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I have no idea what strategy will promote Leica's interests best. 

The current CL suits me nearly perfectly. An updated model with a dedicated port for a remote release cable would do me even better. Weather sealing would be nice, although I haven't found it necessary. I haven't found any need for image stabilization either, but if it were implemented well it's a nice plus. 

The remote release socket and a remote release would motivate me to consider buying a new body. It's the one thing I miss on regular occasion.

I have no need for another fixed lens camera at present so the X series is pretty much over for me.

G

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I can’t imagine why Leica would reintroduce the X cameras and ditch the L mount TL camera.  Offering only one APS-C system camera would look odd if that format is as significant as you say.  Leica is committed to the L mount.  I often wonder if the TL2 sales are as poor as people say ...

If I was looking for a fixed lens camera, the Zeiss ZX1 would appeal.

 

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A 24 MP XVario2 and a 48MP CL2 would be nice. But necessary? I don`t know.

I don`t miss much when I use my CL. Do I need more? Probably not. Would I buy a 48 MP-CL2? Probably yes. I´m afraid that I am a typical Leica-user...^^

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The full hearted improved Leica half frame will compete with Leica full frames. It takes 2-3 Leica half frames to compensate every lost full frame business. To make sense out of it, Leica need far more than that to justify the half frame efforts.

Leica is certainly capable of creating it, but it would out run Leica’s production volume.

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3 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

I can’t imagine why Leica would reintroduce the X cameras and ditch the L mount TL camera.  Offering only one APS-C system camera would look odd if that format is as significant as you say.  Leica is committed to the L mount.  I often wonder if the TL2 sales are as poor as people say ...

If I was looking for a fixed lens camera, the Zeiss ZX1 would appeal.

 

I can imagine - size. And convenience. There is a similar case to be made for the viability of the Q alongside the M.

As for the T/TL series. I did preorder the T, however, when it was introduced I immediately cancelled the preorder. Somehow it did not seem like the type of Leica that appealed. Irrational. I know. It appears that I am not the only one.

 

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The TL2 is superb with the 18mm lens ; I find the build quality, touch menu, travel charging  and handing superior to the CL ( I have both ).

The failure to build in an EVF as the T model series progressed was deeply disappointing.

 

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That is interesting. I have TL2 and CL, too, and for me the CL is definitly the better and "more Leica" camera. And from all Leica-lenses the 18mm is the only one which disappointed me. I do only keep it because of it`s size, CL and 18mm are a the only available pocket combination.

Edited by DirkS

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I wonder what it would take to shoehorn an EVF into a T-sized body, or not much bigger. If it effectively became a T-body/interface with CL innards, including EVF, that would attract my attention.

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I hope the TL line isn’t finished. I very nearly bought one over the CL as the design is so sumptuous, the ergonomics and usb-c charging so brilliant. But.... the evf. I personally would switch over in a flash if the next iteration had one.

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I've said before I would like to see Leica develop the APS-C range to include a 'pro' spec body and more/faster native lenses. 

Imagine a smaller SL type camera, more conventional layout and rugged than the CL, with maybe dual card slots etc. 

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1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I wonder what it would take to shoehorn an EVF into a T-sized body, or not much bigger. If it effectively became a T-body/interface with CL innards, including EVF, that would attract my attention.

But given that there is a CL already, I don't think many would switch.

I think Leica is far more interested in specifying and designing a CL2, with better weathersealing, possibly more MP, extended Video options,  next generation EVF, perhaps IBIS, etc.

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1 minute ago, jaapv said:

But given that there is a CL already, I don't think many would switch.

I think Leica is far more interested in specifying and designing a CL2, with better weathersealing, possibly more MP, extended Video options,  next generation EVF, perhaps IBIS, etc.

I'm sure Leica is more aware than we are of the demand for a T-type vs CL-type body, though I suspect you're right. That said, the TL2 is better for video (within narrow limits: it has HDMI-out and in-camera charging, neither of which the CL has) and, as a unibody,  is probably easier to weatherseal.

I'm looking forward to seeing what electronic stabilisation is like in the Sigma fp as an alternative to bulky electro-mechanical IBIS - early reports from video use aren't great, but if it can be tweaked to work that would remove the problem of IBIS bulk

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I really like the design of the TL2 but I don't like cameras without a viewfinder or having to use a touch screen.

I bought the CL instead. If it did not have a touch screen I would be even happier.

 

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For me any continuation of the APS-C system from Leica needs a better/quicker lens roadmap. 

Yes, OK, we could keep talking up the L mount alliance.  Majority of the lenses offered are just not suited to the CL body, being designed more with S1/S1R/SL/SL2 in mind.  

When I bought my CL it was because I wanted an EVF to use with my M glass, 10/10 to Leica for that, but I also hoped to head towards being able to "do it all" with AF lenses from wide to tele - minimum 400mm, and it being available fairly soon.   As I'd been a fuji user previously I think I expected a similar time frame, it's not going to happen is it.

As it is I now just feel the CL (or TL) is a great travel/everyday camera, it is in no way a full system camera, and yet I feel it is more than capable of being one with a few tweaks and the lenses.

In the meantime after saying I definitely wouldn't I've decided to try an S1 with some of my old Canon lenses and the MC-21, I already have the 24-105 and as much as I would like to justify an SL2 when it comes, not sure I can😁 (yet).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Boojay

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I feel similarly to Jane. I had spent some time considering the Fuji line of APSC cameras, principally because of the range of lenses. But the emotional pull of a Leica and an acquaintance selling a lightly used CL tipped the balance.

I had hoped/imagined a lineup with more primes from a 16mm f2.0 to a 35mm f2.0 and on to a 135mm f2.8.

Weather sealing would be a big plus on the CL as would IBIS. I’m frankly happy with a 24MP sensor as I don’t blow up images beyond A2. 

 But the additional lenses and refinements to the CL would see me add a second body and more lenses and give me confidence to stick with the system.

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On 10/30/2019 at 7:02 PM, jaapv said:

I think an X3 will need to have more MP and a wide lens to mimic the the functionality of the Q. Say 28 mm  equ. (collapsible)  and 36 MP.

I think that X3 has to be an as cheap as possible camera (relative to Leica world) 

Making a scaled down version of Q2 is not necessary. 28mm lovers have already their camera. 
However 35mm lovers do not anymore. 
 

I think that it was a bad move to kill X line. Ok big X typ 113 and slow X Vario typ 109 were quite bad with very low sales. But X1 and X2 were very nice. They even start the trend of using X in every name. 
 

To achieve the price point, it has to use as much CL part as possible. 
 

 

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11 hours ago, ruskkyle said:

I hope the TL line isn’t finished. I very nearly bought one over the CL as the design is so sumptuous, the ergonomics and usb-c charging so brilliant. But.... the evf. I personally would switch over in a flash if the next iteration had one.

The resellers are thinking that the TL is finished. So many Leica typical users hated it. No point continuing it. They are not even sure if Leica is still making it anymore. Maybe only stock clearance ? 

Have you notice that Q2 have give up Aluminium and SL2 switch from unibody aluminium to more classical magnesium body. I think that Leica is killing its aluminium unibody production line. Therefore no more full aluminium TL line in the future. What’s the point to make a magnesium TL3 ? It will be better suited for leatherette clad CL2. 
 

Edited by nicci78

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