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nicci78

APS-C future strategy

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In 1980 Peter Schutz was talking about engine component failures in the 911. He was told there was no point fixing them, while the room of senior management looked at a timeline that showed the 911 would die in 1981. Schutz changed the plan and extended the timeline around the room. The component failures were fixed and we know the rest. 
 

if Leica think there’s life in the TL product concept then they should have the castanets to extend the line far into the distance. The question is not when to kill it, but what will it take to make it a significant success that contributes to the growth of the company,  both in revenue and in a reputation?

 

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911 has a cult following. Just like M. 

TL line does not. It was made to drove young customers in mass to Leica. But guess what ? It does not worked as planned. 
 

Smartphones are way better than TL2 in the touch area : way bigger screen, better UI, app support, instant sharing, 4G connection, even better build quality. 

I think that TL2 is too little too late to combat smartphones. It will require lots of R&D, buying top notch huge screen, add an EVF, add 4G, switch to Android for App support, etc...

But guess what ? Zeiss is almost making such camera. At least they try to release ZX1. But it has some big issues. Such like very very long start up time and no SD card support. And no 4G support. 

Edited by nicci78

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And both TL2 and ZX1 cannot compete with a smartphone in size.

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The ZX1 puzzles me.

I think it's a pity that Zeiss did not instead produce a digital version of their Ikon rangefinder camera.

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It remains an open question whether the ZX1 will ever see the light of day in the real world. There's no comparison between that and the ZX1 and the TL2 in size and weight. And if you think the TL2 behaves like an inferior smartphone, then it sounds like you haven't used it.

The TL2 is a marmite camera, but no one here can say if it has achieved Leica's objectives rather than those of the armchair marketing director who just wishes it was something else, and therefore asserts it is a failure🙄. It would not take much to turn the T into a CL in different clothes: mainly a built-in EVF, perhaps in a slightly bigger body. Then it comes down to a choice for the buyer between the traditional or modern style/interface. A common R&D heritage and common components should keep Leica's costs down.

Edited by LocalHero1953

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In no event should they scale back that magnificent T screen.  Building in an EVF, however, would make the screen design less elegant. I’d prefer an upgraded Viso. 

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38 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

It remains an open question whether the ZX1 will ever see the light of day in the real world. There's no comparison between that and the ZX1 and the TL2 in size and weight. And if you think the TL2 behaves like an inferior smartphone, then it sounds like you haven't used it.

The TL2 is a marmite camera, but no one here can say if it has achieved Leica's objectives rather than those of the armchair marketing director who just wishes it was something else, and therefore asserts it is a failure🙄. It would not take much to turn the T into a CL in different clothes: mainly a built-in EVF, perhaps in a slightly bigger body. Then it comes down to a choice for the buyer between the traditional or modern style/interface. A common R&D heritage and common components should keep Leica's costs down.

I don't think it is an inferior smartphone, but a stylish good camera. However, it is aimed at the discerning smartphone customer segment.

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11 hours ago, nicci78 said:



I think that TL2 is too little too late to combat smartphones. It will require lots of R&D, buying top notch huge screen, add an EVF, add 4G, switch to Android for App support, etc...

But guess what ? Zeiss is almost making such camera. At least they try to release ZX1. But it has some big issues. Such like very very long start up time and no SD card support. And no 4G support. 

Both Panasonic and Red tried the camera with smartphone combo ... and failed.

Attached is a photo I took of the Huawei P10 smartphone launch booth at MWC 2017 - note the comical photoshop substitution of a phone in place of an eye level viewfinder camera. 

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3 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

It remains an open question whether the ZX1 will ever see the light of day in the real world. There's no comparison between that and the ZX1 and the TL2 in size and weight. And if you think the TL2 behaves like an inferior smartphone, then it sounds like you haven't used it.

The TL2 is a marmite camera, but no one here can say if it has achieved Leica's objectives rather than those of the armchair marketing director who just wishes it was something else, and therefore asserts it is a failure🙄. It would not take much to turn the T into a CL in different clothes: mainly a built-in EVF, perhaps in a slightly bigger body. Then it comes down to a choice for the buyer between the traditional or modern style/interface. A common R&D heritage and common components should keep Leica's costs down.

Resellers said that it is a failure. Not me. They were so released that CL exists. TL line was too hard to sell. Biggest reseller in France : FNAC refuses to sell TL2. Because T and TL performed so poorly, that they still have inventory for original T ! It doesn’t sell at any price. 

TL2 launched issue with Visoflex bricking the brand new camera, sealed the deal. Orders were cancelled. Most of them never renewed. Hopefully CL was around the corner for resellers. 
 

Of course Leica, can still persists. But the difference with CL is too slim to justify splitting R&D amont two models. 
 

Video capabilities difference are only firmware limitations. Only to segment the two cameras. But it is totally artificial. 

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Largely speculation.

Who knows what Leica will do - they can be conservative (nothing about the CL floats my boat, but it has devotees here) and bloody minded.  I liked the T, but it drove me crazy.  The TL2 is what the first release should have been - it’s a very good camera.

I’m not sure I’m convinced by the “cellphone generation” mantra.  Repetition of such statements don’t make them true.  The TL2 is an L mount system camera.  It’s a very long way from a cellphone.  Coming to grips with the X1D II, with its similar touch screen interface, the TL2 is conceptually very similar.  The touch screen is a very good interface, once you get your head around it.  We now have touch screens on most Leica cameras - the TL2 simply lacks a built in EVF.

However, if Leica dealers are less than enthusiastic about the camera (as Ricci says, at least in France), then the camera has an uncertain future, as so many here opine.  That’s a shame, but it is testament to premature release.  The SL and the T stand in stark contrast - one perfect, the other flawed.  The delayed release of the S3 may be a sign that failing AF motors and other flaws (the 50 APO Summicron and other lens recalls) are being avoided.  That’s a good thing, rather than a sign of R system abandonment.

As it stands, the TL2 deserves to be recognised for what it is, rather than being bagged - but this is Leicaland.  A parallel reality where preference, hope and wild speculation freely mix, like Chinese whispers (the SL2 rumour threads stand as exemplars).  If Leica discontinues the TL2, I won’t be tossing my toys out of the cot (Jaap on video, Paul J on I can’t remember what and Erwin on digital).  My TL2 will continue to work, and will still give me considerable pleasure.

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One persons dealer comments don't make a clear story about the success or failure of a model. Some straws in the wind:

- Red Dot Camera is selling used TL2 bodies for around £1200, compared to the new price of £1660 (ffordes is selling them new at £1500). CL bodies are offered for £1800 compared to £2135 new. So, less discount for the CL, but the TL2 is still sold at reasonable prices: I know from experience that Red Dot doesn't take used cameras for trade-in where there's a glut on the market (like my M240 😞).

- On ebay, used TL2 bodies that have actually sold went for around £1000, and there aren't too many available currently in the EU. That's consistent with a dealer's shop price of £1200.

Read into that what you will, but it doesn't spell unsellable product to me.

Edited by LocalHero1953

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I bought my TL for two reasons. First as a 1,25 extender compared to my M10. Second, as a nice Leica to use for my old parents. Of course they prefered their iPhones. I could not even explain away that there was no autofocus lenses. Yet. Because there were NO interest.

 

I like the camera though.

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I do not see what would make me change my CL for a CL2, it would have to be a huge leap forward

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For me the CL is quite perfect, but I´m afraid that I would buy a CL2, too. But Leica should offer a  small (f=5,6?) 100-300mm OIS lens. I really like the OIS of the Pana 24-105 L-Mount on the CL, it works perfectly. And I use a 300mm lens without OIS (via adapter) where 1 of 2 made pics are okay.  

Edited by DirkS

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50 minutes ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

What are the areas that would make a CL2 most attractive to what seem to be mostly happy CL owners?  IBIS?  More MPx? A less restricted UI?

Thanks no thanks but i would welcome cleaner 3200 & 6400 isos with an EVF more usable in low and high light if possible. 

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vor 3 Stunden schrieb scott kirkpatrick:

What are the areas that would make a CL2 most attractive to what seem to be mostly happy CL owners?  IBIS?  More MPx? A less restricted UI?

For me it would be IBIS and more lenses (with IBIS ans OIS especially tele-lenses)

More MPx? Nice gimmick but I never missed more than 24 MP.

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4 hours ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

What are the areas that would make a CL2 most attractive to what seem to be mostly happy CL owners?  IBIS?  More MPx? A less restricted UI?

maybe the new EVF 6mp  and a dedicated focus button

Edited by cirke

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