35 Summilux Pre-ASPH vs 35 Summicron Pre-ASPH vs 35 Summicron ASPH (2016 edition)

[Mr.Prime]

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3 hours ago, Steven said:

Isn't that the same for all lenses ? I can never see the patch in portrait orientation ! I focus in landscape, then rotate my camera. 

 

Not sure if the Lux pre asph will help in that regard, especially not an infinity lock one. 

 

Interesting, which one are you thinking about then ? I can think of two that ive tried that answer to that description. 

The viewfinder thing is independent of lens, it’s something related to where you position your eye.

Anyhow, not yet thinking about a particular alternative but I am finding out what are my ‘must have’, ‘must not have’ and desirables.

[Aryel]

Hi @Steven

Why not posting the samples that you think were great and the ones you feel were missed because of the lens? This way, anyone who has the same lens can tell you if this is normal behaviour. I don't have one so can't really help.

My naive 2 cents: if you have great shots and some that are wasted, it looks to me that you need to learn the lens. I have a 35pre-asph v2 since December, still trying to learn to anticipate what I will get when shot wide open (i am slow ☺️). Got great shots and bad ones (100% my responsibility).

Hope this helps a bit.

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[Steven]

2 hours ago, Aryel said:

Why not posting the samples that you think were great and the ones you feel were missed because of the lens? This way, anyone who has the same lens can tell you if this is normal behaviour. I don't have one so can't really help.

I’ve posted a few examples of the bad flare i am getting at night earlier in the thread. Ive had the lens for less than a week, this conversation is still just theoretical to me. I haven’t missed the shot of the year with it yet. I am just expressing that I am worried I could. 

 

2 hours ago, Aryel said:

if you have great shots and some that are wasted, it looks to me that you need to learn the lens. I have a 35pre-asph v2 since December, still trying to learn to anticipate what I will get when shot wide open (i am slow ☺️).

Exactly my point. I usually expect from a great lens to work without compromise. I am not saying that I don’t want or shouldn’t learn the lens. Of course, the more you use a tool, the better you use it. That’s true for every tool and for every lens. I have some lenses that everyday i use better than the day before, but it doesn’t mean i have to adapt myself and sacrifice for the lens. 

My bench and lamppost example was futile. This morning, i found myself in a more tricky situation. I arrived in a train station in paris in the early hours of the morning. The hall was empty, and perfect for an architectural shot. I could not framed the shot like i wanted because of the position of the lights flaring too much into the lens. Yes, i could have moved, as other who say “you have to know your lens” said, but the point is that I DID NOT WANT TO MOVE. I wanted that precise composition. Anything else was not as good to me. But i had to sacrifice my shot, and adapt to the tool. 

I think it should be different. Look, I am not saying I don’t like the lens. I do. It renders beautifully when the planet align. But a lens to me should be a transparent tool. It shouldn’t be in the way of the photo and me. It shouldn’t have a word to say in my photo. And the pre Asph lux has so much character, as some say, that it speaks a little too much in my opinion. It’s getting involved in my composition process, when i would expect it to remain silent. 

I really hope i wont receive more comments saying it’s not the lens ‘ fault but mine. Because you would be missing the point. I will learn how to use it, and i will excel in using if needed. Nothing is my fault. I am not a bad photographer. It just sucks that i have to make sacrifices. 

I understand that argument in some situation, but not the one i am describing. I am not the kind to say “I missed this shot because of the lens, because it’s an F2 and i needed F1.4 for that shot”, or “this shot is ruined because the bokeh is too soft and i needed it to be harsher”, but when a lens can not technically follow with me, or with the shot i want to do, that’s a pity... and its the lens fault. Not mine. 

Thank you

[Ecar]

Quick question: are you using it with the OLLUX hood attached? It helps quite a bit in my experience.

[Steven]

12 minutes ago, Ecar said:

Quick question: are you using it with the OLLUX hood attached? It helps quite a bit in my experience.

Sometimes. 

I’ve been told that you own a very similar copy of my lens, maybe sold to you by a similar previous owner.... 

[Steven]

14 minutes ago, Ecar said:

Quick question: are you using it with the OLLUX hood attached? It helps quite a bit in my experience.

Just checked your portfolio. Excellent galleries 😍

[Ecar]

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15 minutes ago, Steven said:

Sometimes. 

I’ve been told that you own a very similar copy of my lens, maybe sold to you by a similar previous owner.... 

Maybe 😉. I had one many years ago, then sold it, missed it, and looked for another copy again a couple of years ago.

Seriously, it shouldn't flare THAT badly. TBH, I find the v2 more flare prone than the v1, which in turn has lower contrast. The hood helps, with both flare and contrast.

Also, I had mine CLA'd right after purchasing it (as I often do with vintage lenses): the glass may look clean but it can be a bit hazy and it's hard to see, the elements may have become ever so slightly misaligned over time, etc. It's worth a try if you want to make a definitive assessment.

[Ecar]

37 minutes ago, Steven said:

Just checked your portfolio. Excellent galleries 😍

Thanks - much appreciated.

Actually, I haven't updated it in a long time. Note to self: do something about it.

Edited February 4, 2021 by Ecar

[Steven]

16 minutes ago, Ecar said:

Maybe 😉. I had one many years ago, then sold it, missed it, and looked for another copy again a couple of years ago.

Seriously, it shouldn't flare THAT badly. TBH, I find the v2 more flare prone than the v1, which in turn has lower contrast. The hood helps, with both flare and contrast.

Also, I had mine CLA'd right after purchasing it (as I often do with vintage lenses): the glass may look clean but it can be a bit hazy and it's hard to see, the elements may have become ever so slightly misaligned over time, etc. It's worth a try if you want to make a definitive assessment.

Leaving on a three weeks trip to Colombia, will do it for sure upon my return. 

[pedaes]

56 minutes ago, Steven said:

Leaving on a three weeks trip to Colombia, will do it for sure upon my return.

In the middle of a Pandemic!  Spread a little happiness!

[Steven]

2 hours ago, pedaes said:

In the middle of a Pandemic!  Spread a little happiness!

Well, I should mentioned its not a leisure trip, but a compulsory travel. Nothing will stop me from bringing a couple of my leicas though 😁

[shirubadanieru]

5 hours ago, Steven said:

I’ve posted a few examples of the bad flare i am getting at night earlier in the thread. Ive had the lens for less than a week, this conversation is still just theoretical to me. I haven’t missed the shot of the year with it yet. I am just expressing that I am worried I could. 

 

Exactly my point. I usually expect from a great lens to work without compromise. I am not saying that I don’t want or shouldn’t learn the lens. Of course, the more you use a tool, the better you use it. That’s true for every tool and for every lens. I have some lenses that everyday i use better than the day before, but it doesn’t mean i have to adapt myself and sacrifice for the lens. 

My bench and lamppost example was futile. This morning, i found myself in a more tricky situation. I arrived in a train station in paris in the early hours of the morning. The hall was empty, and perfect for an architectural shot. I could not framed the shot like i wanted because of the position of the lights flaring too much into the lens. Yes, i could have moved, as other who say “you have to know your lens” said, but the point is that I DID NOT WANT TO MOVE. I wanted that precise composition. Anything else was not as good to me. But i had to sacrifice my shot, and adapt to the tool. 

I think it should be different. Look, I am not saying I don’t like the lens. I do. It renders beautifully when the planet align. But a lens to me should be a transparent tool. It shouldn’t be in the way of the photo and me. It shouldn’t have a word to say in my photo. And the pre Asph lux has so much character, as some say, that it speaks a little too much in my opinion. It’s getting involved in my composition process, when i would expect it to remain silent. 

I really hope i wont receive more comments saying it’s not the lens ‘ fault but mine. Because you would be missing the point. I will learn how to use it, and i will excel in using if needed. Nothing is my fault. I am not a bad photographer. It just sucks that i have to make sacrifices. 

I understand that argument in some situation, but not the one i am describing. I am not the kind to say “I missed this shot because of the lens, because it’s an F2 and i needed F1.4 for that shot”, or “this shot is ruined because the bokeh is too soft and i needed it to be harsher”, but when a lens can not technically follow with me, or with the shot i want to do, that’s a pity... and its the lens fault. Not mine. 

Thank you

Reading this I really feel you should not invest in vintage glass to be honest lol if you want a transparent rendering, just go with the ASPH cron, or Zeiss 35mm f2.8; it will give you the most sharp, contrasty and transparent look you can wish for. That being said, even modern lenses don’t give ‘transparent looks’ wide open so regardless of the lens you should close down if that’s what you’re looking for. 

My point being, the reason to buy a vintage (Leica or any other brand) lens is that you don’t want a transparent rendering, but you enjoy the uniqueness (ie imperfections) that those old lenses bring. Reading your text I really think you should focus on ASPH lenses and that’s it. 

35/50mm Summilux pre-asph, 35/50mm summicron v1, Summarit f1.5, Noctilux f1.2 / f1, Summilux 75mm, Sonnar f1.5, etc...all these lenses are famous and have their fans (and haters) because they are NOT transparent, and offer a unique rendering you can’t get with any other lens...so the reason you’re complaining about is the exact reason why people love the lens...therefore, again, just go with ASPH and the lens will do well whatever you want it to do, regardless of the light and aperture. 

[Steven]

4 minutes ago, shirubadanieru said:

if you want a transparent rendering

I dont want transparent rendering. The use of the word transparent was in reference to my relationship between the camera and the moment in front of me. I dont want the lens to appear (on my mind, in my thought) during the process. I want to focus on the photo, not the constraint of the lens. I invest in vintage lens because i enjoy the way they render. Take the example of the Nokton, which is comparable to the pre Asph, to some extent, in the way it draws. It’s rendering is not transparent, and i like it. The use of it IS transparent. It’s imperfect, it glows, it flares, but i never need to worry about missing the shot. It never ruins a shot. 

7 minutes ago, shirubadanieru said:

My point being, the reason to buy a vintage (Leica or any other brand) lens is that you don’t want a transparent rendering, but you enjoy the uniqueness (ie imperfections) that those old lenses bring. Reading your text I really think you should focus on ASPH lenses and that’s it. 

Again, I do want character. In the image, not in the behavior. My two least favorite lenses are the FLE and the Cron ASPH. I’d rather not take photos than use the Cron ASPH. I cant stand the rendering of that lens. But the imperfection in the image does not necessarily need to come with sacrifices while taking the photos. I’ll refer to the Nokton example once again. 

 

9 minutes ago, shirubadanieru said:

so the reason you’re complaining about is the exact reason why people love the lens...

Nope, it’s not the reason. Also, I am not complaining. I am criticizing (the lens). 

 

10 minutes ago, shirubadanieru said:

therefore, again, just go with ASPH and the lens will do well whatever you want it to do, regardless of the light and aperture. 

therefore, again, no. Again, the point is missed. 

 

FYI, i have not decided yet if I am a hater or a lover of this lens. Most likely a lover. But sometimes you can love someone that you don’t trust. Actually, often.... 

[Steven]

One of the frustration in my thought process is that there is also an aesthetics factor that comes into play. I like a lot the way the Steel Rim looks on the camera, just like you, @shirubadanieru. 

My most good looking camera is my M10D. I would love to be able to mount my Steel Rim on my M10D and leave it glued to it. But i dont trust it. It’s so unpredictable that I’ll always need to check the back of the screen. With the Nokton, on the other hand, i trust the result. If there’s a flare, I’ll embrace it, because its flare is predictable. It’s always the same. 

[a.noctilux]

Like two people,

you are learning to know each other 😇.

The marriage can be or not, future will tell...

 

Nothing new really !

Perfection is boring.

This experience may be repeated infinitely.

For me maybe hundred (or thousands) times 🙃

Edited February 4, 2021 by a.noctilux

[shirubadanieru]

10 minutes ago, Steven said:

I’d rather not take photos than use the Cron ASPH.

Ahahah I do not like this lens at all either, but I’d probably still use it if someone gave it to me ahah but yes, I’m with you it’s probably my least favorite Leica lens of all time. That and the Summarits f2.5 / f2.4 which actually have great rendering which is much better than the Cron ASPH, but I just can’t deal with the super short focus throw. 

My bad then, I thought when you were saying transparent that you were referring to the lens rendering, that’s why I said you should use ASPH lenses, otherwise you’ll never be satisfied. I get what you mean now, but yeah in the end, and of course I wasn’t there with you to understand what you mean, but I’d never use a vintage lens (especially not the lux pre-asph) wide open to do an architecture shot unless I was specifically looking for a glowy building and to have flare in my image. I’d just stop it down to f4~f8 and be done with it. 
 

5 minutes ago, Steven said:

It’s so unpredictable that I’ll always need to check the back of the screen. With the Nokton, on the other hand, i trust the result. If there’s a flare, I’ll embrace it, because its flare is predictable. It’s always the same. 

You just need to use it more? It seems you’ve only had it for a couple of days and it’s one of the hardest lenses to master wide open...so either use wide open only in very limited situations and stick to f2 ~ f8 for the most part, or go completely the opposite way and shoot all sort of scenarios / lighting wide open for a couple of days, go home, and try to understand how the lens behaves in certain circumstances; this will hopefully help you trust and understand the lens. In the end, if it’s too glowy or still too unreliable for you, then I do think the V4 summicron would be a better choice. 

Edited February 4, 2021 by shirubadanieru

[Steven]

Just now, a.noctilux said:

Like two people,

you are learning to know each other 😇.

The marriage can be or not, future will tell...

 

Nothing new really !

I was tempted to use the métaphore of a very hot girl to describe the Steel Rim. You cant get enough of it, but you check the inbox and text messages (the back of the screen) to make sure she can be trusted. 

Future will tell.... It’s the only lens i am using right not. 

Not sure if that’s relevant at all, but I’m enjoying it more on my SL2S than on my M10 right now... 

[a.noctilux]

Steven, you are taking it right,

with SL2S VF you can see the "flaws" in real time.

Avoiding or including must be easier than M10's OVF.

[Steven]

4 minutes ago, shirubadanieru said:

I’d never use a vintage lens (especially not the lux pre-asph) wide open to do an architecture shot unless I was specifically looking for a glowy building and to have flare in my image. I’d just stop it down to f4~f8 and be done with it.

I would not either. But this morning its the lens i had with me. Wide aperture was necessary because it was still night time. And it was not really an intention of taking an architectural shot, but rather the life of the train station in the early morning. And because of the symmetrical architecture of the construction (the environnement of my scene), there were very few compositions that suited me. The one i loved the most was not possible because of a bright light coming in the corner.

 

6 minutes ago, shirubadanieru said:

You just need to use it more?

Absolutely. Best advice i got. That and to have it CLA’d just to make sure. 

 

7 minutes ago, shirubadanieru said:

if it’s too glowy or still too unreliable for you

I like that it’s glowy. I dont like that it’s unreliable. 

 

8 minutes ago, shirubadanieru said:

the V4 summicron would be a better choice. 

I bought that lens at the same time as the steel rim. A bit of an impulse on this one. A beautiful, brand new silver copy. It seems to be an excellent lens, but i dont know yet how it will fit in my usage. It might fit on my shelf only. For now, i see it like this: 

- The Steel Rim when i need a compact lens and it’s day time

- The Nokton when i need a compact less and it’s night time

- The pre fle when size is not an issue and I need a reliable, full of precision and character, Swiss army lens, regardless of wether its day time or night time. 

- Still wonder where I’m going to fit the v4 .... I will have to find a space for it... 

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[Steven]

4 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

Steven, you are taking it right,

with SL2S VF you can see the "flaws" in real time.

Avoiding or including must be easier than M10's OVF.

Not sure that’s the reason as I have not yet dared to use the Steel Rim with the OVF. Live view only. 

I think that the reason that i like with my SL2S is video... The glowiness makes for a very unique moving image. It’s refreshing from the over sharpened digital footage we consume all day long. Also, seeing the imperfections and the flare come in and out slowly of the shots as the camera moves around adds a bit of vintage drama... A passing through flare on video is much more pleasing (and welcomed) than a disgusting flare that puts a layer of vaseline right on top of my subject on a still image. 

Does that make any sense at all ?