M11M Images Are Too Perfect

[rustyrus]

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If you want film grain, shoot film- 

Calling any camera to perfect (one that you haven't used I might add) is a bit silly. the M10m is fantastic but why try and convince yourself on a forum that you don't need the M11m because its to perfect- 

 

Pretty silly post 

 

Also for reference- I hate threads like this without posting any pictures. Please show us where its to perfect- Again sounds like you just want to convince yourself you don't want it. 

For me it is perfect- 

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[costa43]

14 minutes ago, rustyrus said:

If you want film grain, shoot film- 

Calling any camera to perfect (one that you haven't used I might add) is a bit silly. the M10m is fantastic but why try and convince yourself on a forum that you don't need the M11m because its to perfect- 

 

Pretty silly post 

 

Also for reference- I hate threads like this without posting any pictures. Please show us where its to perfect- Again sounds like you just want to convince yourself you don't want it. 

For me it is perfect- 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

I think calling the OPs post silly is unfair. Many of us have emotional connections to our Leica cameras and their output and this is definitely the place for us all to geek out and talk about them. My wife is not interested in listening to me go on about it, that’s for sure.

 

 

 

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[rustyrus]

2 minutes ago, costa43 said:

I think calling the OPs post silly is unfair. Many of us have emotional connections to our Leica cameras and their output and this is definitely the place for us all to geek out and talk about them. My wife is not interested in listening to me go on about it, that’s for sure.

 

 

 

Agree to a point- Geeking out is one thing- Calling a camera to perfect, one you haven't used is a bit silly IMO. To often people form opinions on tools they haven't used- Or lenses they have never touched etc. 

[costa43]

19 minutes ago, rustyrus said:

Agree to a point- Geeking out is one thing- Calling a camera to perfect, one you haven't used is a bit silly IMO. To often people form opinions on tools they haven't used- Or lenses they have never touched etc. 

Yes they do and I agree wholeheartedly that the best way to come to a decision is to try a product out first hand but let’s be honest, I’m sure we have all formed an opinion on a camera or the way a lens renders based on just looking at an image at some point. I do it all the time when making a purchasing decision. 😃

[geotrupede]

54 minutes ago, rustyrus said:

without posting any pictures

totally agree. 

This collection is made of MM9 and M11 colour conversions. 

https://www.papa-antonutto.com/375hours

G.

[Gobert]

4 hours ago, fotografr said:

Several people have mentioned that grain can be added in post. I'm aware of that and did already mention it in my original comment. I have a Topaz software that does a nice job of adding grain. 

Do any M11M users actually use the 18MP or 36MP settings? I'd enjoy seeing some image samples to see how that impacts what I'm not liking about the appearance of the 60MP images. Any volunteers? 

 

Now I remember this option. Never used it.

[Pelu2010]

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Hey, 

if the image is to clean, then you can add something that works against. 
 

you can scan clean film and ad it to your images. 
 

or you can get some Stock clean film samples and experiment with it. 
 

the only other way that I can imagine is like someone stated: 

try some tri-x film with a Leica m3. 
 

or 

 

an M9 or M8. 
 

cheers 

[Photojoejoe21]

On 12/29/2023 at 10:26 AM, Jon Warwick said:

Exactly. Fully agree with you. The M11M gives the benefit of an even more precise resolution than the M10M, which is great for larger prints especially for subjects such as landscapes, and I add grain in post production to achieve whatever filmic “look” I want for a specific image. Setting up my drum-scanned negatives next to the Leica DNG has been useful to dial in how much and what type of grain to add in post in ACR, depending on whether I’m targeting a 35mm, 120 or 5x4 rendering. 

Jon would you mind sharing these values? Do you know how to make lightroom/ACR presets? I'd be very interested in seeing your grain replication settings from comparing it to film.

[fotografr]

1 hour ago, Pelu2010 said:

Hey, 

if the image is to clean, then you can add something that works against. 
 

you can scan clean film and ad it to your images. 
 

or you can get some Stock clean film samples and experiment with it. 
 

the only other way that I can imagine is like someone stated: 

try some tri-x film with a Leica m3. 
 

or 

 

an M9 or M8. 
 

cheers 

Hi, and thank you.

I've gone through the whole progression with the exception of the M11M. I started with Leica M in 1978 with a pair of M3ds bodies and shot mostly Tri-X. I later went with M6 and MP until Leica came out with the M8. I had the M8, M9M, M246 and now the M10M. I absolutely love the results I get with my M10M. The point of my post was to express that the images I've seen coming from the M11M are so incredibly smooth, sharp, detailed and "perfect," that they seem to have gone too far and become sterile and lacking the kind of gritty depth and character previous models managed to retain. Yes, as some people have pointed out, I can take measures to add grain and make the images resemble film, but with my M10M I already have a camera that does this without added effort. It's still my opinion that the 41MP sensor in the M10M is perhaps the top limit for retaining the qualities I look for and that the M11M has mostly erased them. 

It's not just the M11M. I feel the same way about images I see from the Fuji GFX and the new Sony cameras. All of the emphasis now seems to be on getting the highest resolution possible and in my opinion some of what I've always loved about B&W images has been lost in the process.

Cheers,

Brent

[fotografr]

3 hours ago, rustyrus said:

If you want film grain, shoot film- 

Calling any camera to perfect (one that you haven't used I might add) is a bit silly. the M10m is fantastic but why try and convince yourself on a forum that you don't need the M11m because its to perfect- 

 

Pretty silly post 

 

Also for reference- I hate threads like this without posting any pictures. Please show us where its to perfect- Again sounds like you just want to convince yourself you don't want it. 

For me it is perfect- 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

Well, it's rather difficult to post samples from a camera you don't possess. 

I stated an opinion based on images I've seen posted here and elsewhere that have been taken with the M11M. If the image you posted was supposed to change my mind, it didn't. 

I don't have any need to convince myself I don't want the M11M. If I'd been seeing images that have the qualities I look for, I'd own one. Period. The point I've been making is not that I want to shoot film. It's that some of the qualities I liked in film seem to have been mostly removed from the files put out by the M11M. The M10M still retains those qualities, in my opinion. 

If the discussion is too "silly" for you, just move on. 

Edited December 30, 2023 by fotografr

[Alberti]

Brent I think I agree; I note up front note the M9M/M11M is a different pair than for example M9/M11.

In the latter we accept progress of image ca-ture and rendering of contrast, color, resolution (whatever that may be in a color picture). I hear no-one complain in the same words about the M10R/M11 (they are tooooo clean etc.)

In BW there is a long tonal range we want and in the M9M we indeed have the beautifull grain. 
Now WHAT IF that grain was ‘made’ specifically in the algoritms devised by the partners of the software (i.e. the Phase One team members? 
If that were a fact, known and acknowledged, then your remark could be reprased in: “Would it be possible to manage the internal rendering in RAW such that there will be an appearance of correlation of pixels that share a certain proximity??” How can we get a graininess look in the output?

Personally I do not like the 100% look of my M10r files, there is no charm to it like the old CCD had; I have no M11 but expect also that lack of charm.

But in the M11M the expectations probably differ.

[hopefully I can be understood]

 

 

[fotografr]

3 hours ago, rustyrus said:

Agree to a point- Geeking out is one thing- Calling a camera to perfect, one you haven't used is a bit silly IMO. To often people form opinions on tools they haven't used- Or lenses they have never touched etc. 

When I buy a camera, I like to have it be an informed decision. I don't just buy it to have the latest and greatest. A large part of that decision is looking at the results being obtained by current users. If you wouldn't mind reading my original comment, it would explain that I'm not impressed with the image characteristics I've seen from the M11M and I think I was pretty clear as to why. 

I wonder on what basis you buy lenses and cameras? 

Edited December 30, 2023 by fotografr

[lct]

A perfect camera is a camera showing perfectly what the lens does. Then you know what to do. Use an imperfect lens that's all. Problem solved 😉

[FlashGordonPhotography]

42 minutes ago, fotografr said:

Hi, and thank you.

I've gone through the whole progression with the exception of the M11M. I started with Leica M in 1978 with a pair of M3ds bodies and shot mostly Tri-X. I later went with M6 and MP until Leica came out with the M8. I had the M8, M9M, M246 and now the M10M. I absolutely love the results I get with my M10M. The point of my post was to express that the images I've seen coming from the M11M are so incredibly smooth, sharp, detailed and "perfect," that they seem to have gone too far and become sterile and lacking the kind of gritty depth and character previous models managed to retain. Yes, as some people have pointed out, I can take measures to add grain and make the images resemble film, but with my M10M I already have a camera that does this without added effort. It's still my opinion that the 41MP sensor in the M10M is perhaps the top limit for retaining the qualities I look for and that the M11M has mostly erased them. 

It's not just the M11M. I feel the same way about images I see from the Fuji GFX and the new Sony cameras. All of the emphasis now seems to be on getting the highest resolution possible and in my opinion some of what I've always loved about B&W images has been lost in the process.

Cheers,

Brent

I have both the M10M and M11M and I'm not sure I agree with your assessment. All the MxM's are capable of incredible high ISO results and the difference between the M10M and M11M just isn't that great. The M10M was a much bigger leap over the M246 than the M11 is over the M10M. At the sizes I print (A1 mostly but A0 in 2024) there's not a huge difference and both get close to the 102MP miniMF sensor if converted to b&w (I have both the GFX and Hasselblad systems). Neither sensor falls apart until the ISO or print size is vast.

I would never suggest upgrading from the M10M to M11M based on the sensor performance or IQ. That difference is pretty irrelevant and tiny. The only reason to upgrade is for the extras. Longer battery life, long exposure capabilities, USBC charging etc... Or if, like me, you have an M11 and want feature and accessory parity between the cameras. 

Gordon

[rustyrus]

24 minutes ago, fotografr said:

When I buy a camera, I like to have it be an informed decision. I don't just buy it to have the latest and greatest. A large part of that decision is looking at the results being obtained by current users. If you wouldn't mind reading my original comment, it would explain that I'm not impressed with the image characteristics I've seen from the M11M and I think I was pretty clear as to why. 

I wonder on what basis you buy lenses and cameras? 

I read what people that have used the equipment have to say and look for opinions of people that have used the camera or lens- I don't go making posts that X camera is to perfect, X camera isn't good, X  lens doesn't do this etc when I haven't been able to use the gear- Thats all- 

 

 

 

[fotografr]

16 minutes ago, rustyrus said:

I read what people that have used the equipment have to say and look for opinions of people that have used the camera or lens- I don't go making posts that X camera is to perfect, X camera isn't good, X  lens doesn't do this etc when I haven't been able to use the gear- Thats all- 

 

 

 

Well, good for you. I guess you're just too perfect.

[Overgaard]

I think is perfectly legitimate to claim that the M11M files are "too perfect" and it is good fuel for thought.

Is resolution image quality, or is it just the only thing that can be amplified in modern photography?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[NigelG]

Having bowed out of the megapixel race (I don’t print large or crop aggressively) I’m sticking with my lovely chrome M9M - IMHO it’s “Goldilocks” files aren’t “too perfect” they’re just perfect enough…😉

[fotografr]

3 hours ago, NigelG said:

Having bowed out of the megapixel race (I don’t print large or crop aggressively) I’m sticking with my lovely chrome M9M - IMHO it’s “Goldilocks” files aren’t “too perfect” they’re just perfect enough…😉

I thought the files from the M9M with it's marvelous CCD sensor were incredible. I loved mine but there were a few things that convinced me to move on. One was the sensor corrosion issue that was followed by Leica announcing that there would not be further replacements down the road. Other factors were the small, low res LCD, loud shutter and a somewhat bulky body. In terms of image quality, I have many M9M files stored on my hard drives that I would say are as good as any I've seen from any subsequent camera. 

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[MarkP]

2 hours ago, fotografr said:

I thought the files from the M9M with its marvelous CCD sensor were incredible. I loved mine but there were a few things that convinced me to move on. One was the sensor corrosion issue that was followed by Leica announcing that there would not be further replacements down the road. Other factors were the small, low res LCD, loud shutter and a somewhat bulky body. In terms of image quality, I have many M9M files stored on my hard drives that I would say are as good as any I've seen from any subsequent camera. 

I agree with all that.  High ISO (or not that high ISO) banding was also very frustrating.

Edited December 31, 2023 by MarkP