Looking for something different, M11M or Hasselblad?

[macmk]

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Hi, I'm new to this forum so I hope it's the correct place to ask.

After a lot of on and off relationship with "proper" cameras (mainly Canons), I'm back to only shooting on my iPhone now (which I always have with me).

Now, I'm looking for some significantly different experience without going for analog (not yet at least). Ideally full frame / medium format, I don't mind slowing down and experimenting. This led me to few interesting options: M11M, 907x, X2D. I already requested a weekend rental of M11M, but wanted to ask and see if I can learn some insights.

My main concern with Leica is that I'm seeing a LOT of threads online (proportionally to Canon and now Hasselblad) about issues with software and sometimes hardware. I wouldn't be worried that much if I knew that Leica got me covered for at least first 2 years, but I'm now reading horror stories about any service taking 3+ (and mostly 6+) months and not necessarily resolving the issue. In some cases, even possibly making it worse. Am I reading too much into it? My expectation was that high end manufacturer would at least partially justify the price by having top notch quality and customer service.

Now, I'm also looking at 907x, which offer quite unique experience and superb built quality. Usually when I see anything posted about servicing, it's also relatively quick and painless process. I'm not sure I'd like it more than Leica M (form factor, especially for vertical shooting), so also considering X2D which in turn starts to be bigger and more "standard" experience. Unfortunately there is only paid rental option, which I'm a bit hesitant about unless I'd be mostly set to buy it anyway and just make it a last "compatibility" check.

Any thoughts on those cameras (ideally from the owners), or maybe there are other interesting choices I'm missing? Generally I'm not looking for the most robust camera to get the job done, but have some fun with photography. Maybe finally make some large format prints from my vacations.

[jaapv]

Don't get an M11. The M10 and M10R are a completely stable platform and much more "analog-like" than the M11.  

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[Al Brown]

I could not decide on just Leica or just X2D so I got both. Not 0.000001% sorry.

[macmk]

6 hours ago, jaapv said:

Don't get an M11. The M10 and M10R are a completely stable platform and much more "analog-like" than the M11.  

Hm.. Didn't really considered older model, but maybe it's worth the look. What's changed that's M11 is less "analog like"?

As I never shot on film (only as a kid and don't have any strong feelings toward it), I may not necessarily look for some of the quirks of that era, but would welcome some of the quality features; mechanical dials instead of screen, probably rangefinder experience (to be seen) and general quality (non plasticky) build.

But I must say I like the higher resolution, minimal noise on high iso, internal storage and usb-c charging / data transfer of M11M/Hasselblads. I feel like we're quite spoiled (for $$$$ off course) with the current choice.

6 hours ago, Al Brown said:

I could not decide on just Leica or just X2D so I got both. Not 0.000001% sorry.

I hope I won't go this way, but I can definitely understand that 😅

Edited February 20 by macmk

[dpitt]

I always buy Leica used. See the list of models that I still own, some digital ones of them are 20 years old.
They last very long,  and the quality is unique even when comparing them with current models from other brands.

The main thing for you to decide is if  the rangefinder experience is something for you.

The best, and probably only way to know this  is to own one for at least a few weeks. My first experiences were very positive, but I already had a lot of experience with manual focus only systems from my film days. So for me it only took a few days to decide this was the ultimate for me. That was in 2009 when I first held a M8 in my hand. The first time I looked through a view finder of a range finder.

It was very expensive for me at the time, so I did the same as you and asked here on this forum...
The best advice I got was to buy a 'cheap' film M and shoot that for a while to see if the rangefinder was something for me. I did, and not only bought a M8 later but now ended up with a complete collection of film Ms too 😎

If the M11M does not convince you immediately, give it some more time. Why not buy a 'cheap' M and keep it for a few months. I would not advice buying a film M, but there are lots of options in digital Ms now compared to 2009 when the M9 was not even released. A M240 would be a perfect and cheap intro, with maybe a vintage 50mm Summicron, affordable and usable, even on the M11 later if you decide to buy one. Both can be used for a year and resold for a very small loss. If you buy from a private seller in good working condition, chances are that you will get your money back.

In any case this experiment would be fun and exciting compared to using the iPhone only.

[IkarusJohn]

I agree with @jaapv on the M11 series cameras.  The M10M would be a better pick.

I have the M9 version of the Monochrom (Henri) and I have the X2D.  They are obvioously very different cameras, but each has its own challenge.

The Monochrom has the benefit of 70 years of M lenses and older LTM lenses with the rangefinder, and R lenses with an EVF.  That gives considerable choice and flexibility.  I love the modest size and simplicity of the M system, and the Monochrom has fabulous resolution and dynamic range.  I use mine in manual, with Auto-ISO.  Even at the CCD’s relatively poor high ISO performance, the images havelovely grain.

The X2D is probably the best digital camera I have used.  It’s a lot larger than an M camera, but fits the hand beautifully, and it isn’t especially heavy.  Its paradigm is very similar to the M system - simple, horizontal and intuitive menu architecture, fantastic sensor and very simple controls.  You can use the M lenses, cropped, but only with the electronic shutter.  In terms of its capability, the X2D is fabulous.

Neither is for fast photography - it’s nice to be encouraged to think.

[macmk]

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12 hours ago, dpitt said:

If the M11M does not convince you immediately, give it some more time. Why not buy a 'cheap' M and keep it for a few months. I would not advice buying a film M, but there are lots of options in digital Ms now compared to 2009 when the M9 was not even released. A M240 would be a perfect and cheap intro, with maybe a vintage 50mm Summicron, affordable and usable, even on the M11 later if you decide to buy one. Both can be used for a year and resold for a very small loss. If you buy from a private seller in good working condition, chances are that you will get your money back.

In any case this experiment would be fun and exciting compared to using the iPhone only.

Thanks, you just added another (compelling I must say) option. Doesn't make it easier 

 

12 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

I agree with @jaapv on the M11 series cameras.  The M10M would be a better pick.

I have the M9 version of the Monochrom (Henri) and I have the X2D.  They are obvioously very different cameras, but each has its own challenge.

The Monochrom has the benefit of 70 years of M lenses and older LTM lenses with the rangefinder, and R lenses with an EVF.  That gives considerable choice and flexibility.  I love the modest size and simplicity of the M system, and the Monochrom has fabulous resolution and dynamic range.  I use mine in manual, with Auto-ISO.  Even at the CCD’s relatively poor high ISO performance, the images havelovely grain.

The X2D is probably the best digital camera I have used.  It’s a lot larger than an M camera, but fits the hand beautifully, and it isn’t especially heavy.  Its paradigm is very similar to the M system - simple, horizontal and intuitive menu architecture, fantastic sensor and very simple controls.  You can use the M lenses, cropped, but only with the electronic shutter.  In terms of its capability, the X2D is fabulous.

Neither is for fast photography - it’s nice to be encouraged to think.

Yeah, I started looking for M10M (and older, as @dpitt suggested to get hang of it).

How is your experience with Hasselblad glass? I like the form factor of new 28P and 38V (which would make the camera quite compact, especially 28P), but I'm not seeing great reviews so far.

 

Anyway, looks like previous gen Leica is quite robust and I could probably get a nice deal for non ideal one (I don't care for the looks) with 1 year warranty if bought directly. I will reconsider the budget after playing with M11M 😇

[250swb]

In buying a new camera I’d start by deciding what I wanted to photograph instead of buying a camera with nothing to photograph. It informs everything, usually.

[macmk]

1 hour ago, 250swb said:

In buying a new camera I’d start by deciding what I wanted to photograph instead of buying a camera with nothing to photograph. It informs everything, usually.

Generally agree on that approach. In my case, I'm already taking photos mostly on my trips and not really looking into new use cases, but more into focusing a bit more on the process and hopefully getting more interesting results (and more in general, when it's to easy I tend to rush a bit). I'm also planning to do some test large prints from my iPhone and compare to the M11M.

One new use case I considered is wild life (I have some opportunities as I often choose some remote locations for my travel), but that's definitely not falling under this bucket 😅

[IkarusJohn]

8 hours ago, macmk said:

…

How is your experience with Hasselblad glass? I like the form factor of new 28P and 38V (which would make the camera quite compact, especially 28P), but I'm not seeing great reviews so far.

…

I haven’t tried the 28P, though people seem to like it. There are reviews about - lots of discussion in the hasselbladdigitalforum.  Take it with a grain of salt (a lot of “I love the new lens I just bought”).

I got the 38v as it’s a useful single lens focal length (30mm full frame field of view), and because it is reputed to have faster AF (it is faster than my previous XCD lenses, though I miss the 21/4, 80/1.9 & 135). I do like the slide out, clutched focus ring of the v series lenses. The shutter is/was very quiet - mine is boxed up, ready for shipping back to Gothenburg as the leaf shutter has failed. Using the X2D with my 0.95 Noctilux, cropped square.  Considering the 90v.

[dpitt]

10 hours ago, macmk said:

Anyway, looks like previous gen Leica is quite robust and I could probably get a nice deal for non ideal one (I don't care for the looks) with 1 year warranty if bought directly. I will reconsider the budget after playing with M11M 😇

Non ideal sounds good, it is less likely to lose value when using it.

I suppose you have quite a learning curve ahead of you, but it will be fun. The M will put you in control more than any other camera on the market today. So it forces you to think about what you want and what you are doing. This helps even experienced photographers to produce better results.

About wildlife, that is not the area for M camera's. A Leica M is ideal to record and document your life and those around you, but do not expect it to be ideal for macro or long tele work. Both will require specialized lenses and gear if you are really into it. But the same photographic principles apply. The M will teach you, and then you can expand your expertise from there.

In a way the M is like learning to drive with gear shift cars. With the upcoming electric cars it makes even less sense today, than it did before, but if you can drive with gear shifting, you can easily manage a car with automatic gears, not the other way around.

[intermediatic]

The monochromes are really Leica’s strength, there is nothing like them. The M11M is simply the best camera for monochromatic images while the X2D simply has the best image quality of any camera outside the studio (perhaps a Phase One might best it). As far as Hasselblad, the X2D is the one to get. I did buy the 100C and am glad I have the mines to get both. While the 100C is much more like a Leica M-a slow camera, a joy to shoot with a connection to 60 years of lenses and even cameras, the lack of IBIS is a big difference. Moreover the X2D is an extremely elegant piece of kit, just so well made. The only drawback is the very slow readout of the electronic shutter. But be aware, the FB groups also do have people complaining about six month repairs on Hasselblad lenses too (more common perhaps since each lens has a shutter in it). 

[Shlomo]

On 2/20/2024 at 2:24 PM, Al Brown said:

I could not decide on just Leica or just X2D so I got both. Not 0.000001% sorry.

Best. I do the same and appreciate the distinctly tension-filled relationship between these two.

Cheers, Shlomo

[hirohhhh]

I own almost every latest and greatest Leica digital camera, but I shoot 99% with analog MP and my iPhone 14 Pro....these days it's all about compactness for me....

[macmk]

7 hours ago, intermediatic said:

The monochromes are really Leica’s strength, there is nothing like them. The M11M is simply the best camera for monochromatic images while the X2D simply has the best image quality of any camera outside the studio (perhaps a Phase One might best it). As far as Hasselblad, the X2D is the one to get. I did buy the 100C and am glad I have the mines to get both. While the 100C is much more like a Leica M-a slow camera, a joy to shoot with a connection to 60 years of lenses and even cameras, the lack of IBIS is a big difference. Moreover the X2D is an extremely elegant piece of kit, just so well made. The only drawback is the very slow readout of the electronic shutter. But be aware, the FB groups also do have people complaining about six month repairs on Hasselblad lenses too (more common perhaps since each lens has a shutter in it). 

Yeah, I have similar conclusion after giving it some thought.
907x is out of equation, unless I will already have some lenses, bigger budget and looking for a 3rd camera (which probably won't happen)

X2D seems like the best "universal" camera for everything I may want to use it, and IBIS is something that will make a difference for me. Do you know if you can get loaner lens in case it goes for warranty (I guess from the dealer, as there is no brand stores outside of China)?

I'm still waiting for my weekend with M11M. But I feel this is something I may want to add later down the line if I'll still look for a new experiences.

[Chris W]

On 2/21/2024 at 9:56 PM, macmk said:

Generally agree on that approach. In my case, I'm already taking photos mostly on my trips

The 907X is going to be more of a studio camera, or very slow outdoor camera, with just a screen for composing/focussing which is hard to use in daylight, plus limited external controls. The X2D is far better for trips. The Hasselblad lenses are super expensive plus bulky, except for the 45p (35mm equivalent). My X1D2 with 45p lens is a good every day, travel camera option.

An M10 type is settled bug-wise. It's going to be far more portable. There are some outstanding Voigtlander lenses, as well as Leica M lenses. How are you with manual focus?

If money is no object then M series with a couple of nice lenses. Or X2D with a heavier bulkier lens or two.

[macmk]

I got M11M for the weekend and have some quick thoughts.

1. I love the build quality, menu and ergonomics are ok
2. Picture quality, resolution and low light performance is superb!
3. I don't love the 35mm summicron. It's small, which is great, but I kept accidentally changing aperture setting and there is no close distance focusing whatsoever. Fine otherwise.
4. Focusing this thing is difficult! But I feel like my astigmatism is part of the problem.
5. Framing is hard. But this is something I feel I could get much better at, while with focusing I don't feel this way. I can definitely improve it, but I think it'd always be a chore.

Overall as I already expected by reading opinions so far, I think it would be a great 2nd camera, but not as a "daily" for my travels. I may give another shot for the system by buying older M240 just to have some fun, but that's after I will get my primary gear.

One thing that surprised me is the fact that I managed to get some blurred photos even at 1/160s. I might been in a hurry with the bird photo (attached), but I can also see a bit of movement in others (like the sculpture one, also below) where it shouldn't happen. While I wasn't focused on that too much, I think the ergonomics of the camera doesn't promote stable grip.

As for resolution and quality, I snapped a quick photo of a plane that was flying above me, but didn't expect to be able to crop it so much and still get a nice result from 35mm. I'm quite impressed with it. I also had a lot of fun with cropping different pictures and having super nice and still high res frames that were only a small portion of the original shot. High res sensor is something I'd enjoy.

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Edited March 3 by macmk

[Mute-on]

Sounds a little like the upcoming SL3, or a used SL2(s) might actually be what you are looking for. EVF, autofocus with a manual focus option, superb image quality, larger native lenses and the option of using M lenses (and nearly everything else), IBIS, multiple ways to experiment. It’s just a vastly more versatile platform than the M series. 
 

Good luck!

[macmk]

22 minutes ago, Mute-on said:

Sounds a little like the upcoming SL3, or a used SL2(s) might actually be what you are looking for. EVF, autofocus with a manual focus option, superb image quality, larger native lenses and the option of using M lenses (and nearly everything else), IBIS, multiple ways to experiment. It’s just a vastly more versatile platform than the M series. 
 

Good luck!

I started with looking at M11(M) and new Hasselblads (X2D and 907x + 100C). From all those I think X2D seems to be the best choice so I'm looking for one to check it out live. I'm curious about "medium" format and love the design of their cameras and new lenses.

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[dpitt]

10 hours ago, macmk said:

Focusing this thing is difficult! But I feel like my astigmatism is part of the problem.

The same here. I had perfect eyesight when I started using rangefinders. Now, with age I need reading glasses and more and more astigmatism is in play too. In the beginning there was no issue at all, as long as I could read the shutter times on the dial without glasses, no need for any aid. Then, years went by and all of a sudden I realized that my focusing was completely off. Resulting in a shoot where I had a unusual high percentage of missed shots... 

What is important to know is that the RF focusing spot is at a virtual distance of 2m. So your normal reading glasses will not be of much use. They are calculated for 30cm to 1m at best.  Now I use some good computer glasses from years ago. Then, they were perfect for 70cm to 1 m distance with astigmatism correction. Now with time they are perfect for 2m to 5m distance. When I use these, I can use the RF as before, of course with some more difficulty to see the edges. As long as I do not want to use wider than 35mm that does not matter much.

Also, I was a bit afraid you would have this results from a 2 day test period. During that time you want to test every possible use, which does not give much time to get really used to MF and the RF focusing way. Maybe RF are not for you, maybe they could grow on you. First make sure you have glasses that give 100% sharp sight at 2m. You can test this by placing a magazine at 2m distance and try to read as much of the small print as possible.

Once you have that sorted, it would be nice if you could borrow, rent or buy any Leica M for a while. Take as long as you need and build it up from static objects in perfect light to moving subjects indoors in low light... At a certain moment it became second nature for me and now I would not want otherwise for most subjects.

I do have a SL, TL2 and micro four thirds system. All of them newer and more advanced and with higher resolution and ISO performance, but still they are 'second cameras' to my M9 and M8.

Edited March 4 by dpitt