M11M Images Are Too Perfect

[fotografr]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

2 hours ago, thighslapper said:

Somewhat perplexed by this whole thread. 

I really can't see the point of complaining about the M11M failing to produce 'film like images'.

It ain't film and never will be. 

Apparently, one can't state an opinion or observation without ruffling feathers. I did not complain about anything. I simply posed a question for others to respond to and stated my opinion that the results I've seen from the M11M are not to my liking. I realize it's not film. I simply stated that there are qualities in film images that have been retained to some degree with each digital M up to the M11M, in my opinion. The only "wittering" going on here is from people who don't want to read anything they don't agree with. 

If we can't express opinions on this forum about Leica products, what's the point? 

Edited December 31, 2023 by fotografr

[SrMi]

5 hours ago, fotografr said:

Apparently, one can't state an opinion or observation without ruffling feathers. I did not complain about anything. I simply posed a question for others to respond to and stated my opinion that the results I've seen from the M11M are not to my liking. I realize it's not film. I simply stated that there are qualities in film images that have been retained to some degree with each digital M up to the M11M, in my opinion. The only "wittering" going on here is from people who don't want to read anything they don't agree with. 

If we can't express opinions on this forum about Leica products, what's the point? 

If you postulate in the M11 forum that M11 files are "devoid of character and depth," you should expect some pushback. You can express and stick to your opinion, but you cannot expect that M11 owners will agree, especially since you present it as an opinion without data to back it up.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Jeff S]

The last way I would assess gear is from pics from others on an online forum or photo site.  
 

My comments regarding printing might be repetitive for some, but frankly it’s the only way I can assess gear, and even then, it has to be based on my own images and processing workflow, not work from others. There are simply far too many variables in the shooting-editing-printing-display/lighting chain to meaningfully draw conclusions about a single piece of gear (including the contributing factors from other gear and materials such as the lens, the editing software, the printer and inks, the papers, the lighting, etc). Even then, the most crucial part is the user’s style and skills; no two people create the same work from the same gear… thankfully.

I’ve produced some marvelous prints, as well as mediocre ones, using film (11 brands from 35mm to 8x10) and digital (including M8.2, M240, M10, M10-R, M9M, M10M and SL2). Viewers have no idea, nor do they care, what gear was used, especially if the pic resonates personally for whatever reason. 
 

I don’t own an M11 or M11M, but I’m reasonably confident that I could also produce either marvelous or mediocre work using them as well. The key would be my choices and decisions (at every stage of the shooting to display workflow), not some inherent quality (or lack thereof) of the camera. It might take time, but one can always learn to adapt gear to one’s desired style and preferences.  At least that’s been my experience, still learning and adapting since the 70’s.

Jeff

[Derbyshire Man]

1 hour ago, Jeff S said:

The last way I would assess gear is from pics from others on an online forum or photo site.  
 

My comments regarding printing might be repetitive for some, but frankly it’s the only way I can assess gear, and even then, it has to be based on my own images and processing workflow, not work from others. There are simply far too many variables in the shooting-editing-printing-display/lighting chain to meaningfully draw conclusions about a single piece of gear (including the contributing factors from other gear and materials such as the lens, the editing software, the printer and inks, the papers, the lighting, etc). Even then, the most crucial part is the user’s style and skills; no two people create the same work from the same gear… thankfully.

I’ve produced some marvelous prints, as well as mediocre ones, using film (11 brands from 35mm to 8x10) and digital (including M8.2, M240, M10, M10-R, M9M, M10M and SL2). Viewers have no idea, nor do they care, what gear was used, especially if the pic resonates personally for whatever reason. 
 

I don’t own an M11 or M11M, but I’m reasonably confident that I could also produce either marvelous or mediocre work using them as well. The key would be my choices and decisions (at every stage of the shooting to display workflow), not some inherent quality (or lack thereof) of the camera. It might take time, but one can always learn to adapt gear to one’s desired style and preferences.  At least that’s been my experience, still learning and adapting since the 70’s.

Jeff

Agreed Jeff, a huge part of the skill and art has always been after the choice of subject the laying down of that into the primary recording medium, be it film/digital sensor and then the darkroom printing of that image. Short of incredibly under/overexposed primary image for monochrome probably only 1/3 of work is done before the printing stage! The number of times an unpromising negative turns into a great image is legion. Digital is no different. It needs the same eye and then post capture work. 
 

I’d much rather a flat image to allow complete flexibility in printing than something exciting OOC based in someone else’s tastes which is then harder to work with in post. 
 

The compromise is for Leica to put much more effort into in camera JPEG image settings for the user to tweak a la Fuji. Even the Q2 is better with instant sepia etc which I really like for rapid production for straight to social media. I can see no reason why the Leica looks available for Q3 couldn’t be made available for more bodies. Other than the fact that I’d rather the core firmware was bolted down and crash proof first!

Edited January 1 by Derbyshire Man

[Steadimann]

I've spent a number of hours last couple of days post processing M11P files from various presets to various software... Long story short - all of these presets, colour profiles (including Fuji, btw I shot Fuji for 10 years and still do GFX for some stuff) simply make me crazy - there is too many options, too many simulations etc. I understood that I prefer keeping images to what they have been shot with WB correction and some dodging/burning otherwise this is not photography, it becomes simulation, manipulation etc. 

I remember when using X series Fuji I would always try and decide which preset to use, what would look 'best' in current situation and that drives me nuts instead of focusing on the photograph itself. I love that my M11P does not have any Jpeg simulations and I'm starting to dig into the idea of M11P's content authentication. So the less simulations, the less adjustments the better. I started regretting my decision to buy M11P instead of M11M. When I had just Q2M this was not an issue at all, you do have an image which you love or you don't - no hassling around with colours, presets, balance etc...  And now I just convert to BW.

Coming back to the topic - I did not have a chance to see M10/R files, so I can't compare, but M11 files look good to me compared other cameras. Consumers pushed camera makers into increasing megapixels, otherwise cameras would not sell. But we are at the end of this race, I do not think we will go past 60mgpxl on FF sensor as this makes everything way more complicated - diffraction, sensitivity etc. Not we need to. 

[fotografr]

6 hours ago, SrMi said:

If you postulate in the M11 forum that M11 files are "devoid of character and depth," you should expect some pushback. You can express and stick to your opinion, but you cannot expect that M11 owners will agree, especially since you present it as an opinion without data to back it up.

When people post images on a photography forum, they should be willing to accept criticism. Criticism is, by it's nature, opinion. I've been very clear throughout this discussion that I was expressing an opinion. When you see an image you don't like, do you have to have "data to back it up?" Give me a break. 

I've also been clear that my impression was based on images I've seen posted here in the M11M Photos section. Jeff mentions that one should judge by looking at prints. I'd love to do that but I'm not aware of any galleries around here that are full of prints made with the M11M. I only have what I see here to use as a basis for my opinion. 

People have accused me of "complaining" about the M11M files. That's not true. If I'd bought a M11M and stated I didn't like the files, that would qualify as a complaint. All I did was express my opinion and state the reasons why. 

It's rather unfortunate that someone can't offer a negative opinion on this forum without being subjected to insults and false insinuations. I had no expectations that M11M users would agree with me, but I did expect a fair and open discussion. 

I think everyone has made their points on this topic and I see no value in carrying it any further. 

[Jeff S]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

2 hours ago, fotografr said:

Jeff mentions that one should judge by looking at prints.

That’s only part of my comment; one should judge by making one’s OWN prints. I don’t judge gear by looking at work from others, any more than I’d judge a paint brush by looking at a Rembrandt. 
 

And if all one does is view on screen, then a camera phone can generally suffice, without pixel peeping.

Jeff

[fotografr]

1 hour ago, Jeff S said:

 

And if all one does is view on screen, then a camera phone can generally suffice, without pixel peeping.

Jeff

So, just to be clear, are you saying that unless people make prints, preferably large ones for display, they should not bother to own or use a camera? I'm not being flippant but it does seem like that's what you're implying. My sense is that a very tiny fraction of the images we see posted on this forum ever make it to the print stage--and that's a good thing IMHO. 

[Jeff S]

7 minutes ago, fotografr said:

So, just to be clear, are you saying that unless people make prints, preferably large ones for display, they should not bother to own or use a camera? I'm not being flippant but it does seem like that's what you're implying. My sense is that a very tiny fraction of the images we see posted on this forum ever make it to the print stage--and that's a good thing IMHO. 

No, my prints are actually on the smaller side.  

But GAS is a powerful thing, and it thrives in gear oriented forums.  I don’t speak for anyone else, but I’d move on to drawing or painting if printing weren’t an essential element of my photography.

My camera gear decisions also often relate more to ergonomics, viewing and focusing systems, controls and handling, etc, than to IQ, which has been more than sufficient for my print needs for a long time. 
 

Jeff

[fotografr]

2 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

I don’t speak for anyone else, but I’d move on to drawing or painting if printing weren’t an essential element of my photography.

 

Jeff

I could be wrong but I've long felt that many people come into photography because they aren't any good at drawing or painting. 

[Smudgerer]

4 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

No, my prints are actually on the smaller side.  

But GAS is a powerful thing, and it thrives in gear oriented forums.  I don’t speak for anyone else, but I’d move on to drawing or painting if printing weren’t an essential element of my photography.

My camera gear decisions also often relate more to ergonomics, viewing and focusing systems, controls and handling, etc, than to IQ, which has been more than sufficient for my print needs for a long time. 
 

Jeff

Well said, I'm totally with you in regards to what you say here.....Thanks!

[Jeff S]

22 minutes ago, fotografr said:

I could be wrong but I've long felt that many people come into photography because they aren't any good at drawing or painting. 

And many suck at all 3.  I know a few who are good at all three.  HCB ultimately went back to drawing.  Everyone’s different.

Jeff

Edited January 1 by Jeff S

[SrMi]

5 hours ago, fotografr said:

When people post images on a photography forum, they should be willing to accept criticism. Criticism is, by it's nature, opinion. I've been very clear throughout this discussion that I was expressing an opinion. When you see an image you don't like, do you have to have "data to back it up?" Give me a break. 

I've also been clear that my impression was based on images I've seen posted here in the M11M Photos section. Jeff mentions that one should judge by looking at prints. I'd love to do that but I'm not aware of any galleries around here that are full of prints made with the M11M. I only have what I see here to use as a basis for my opinion. 

People have accused me of "complaining" about the M11M files. That's not true. If I'd bought a M11M and stated I didn't like the files, that would qualify as a complaint. All I did was express my opinion and state the reasons why. 

It's rather unfortunate that someone can't offer a negative opinion on this forum without being subjected to insults and false insinuations. I had no expectations that M11M users would agree with me, but I did expect a fair and open discussion. 

I think everyone has made their points on this topic and I see no value in carrying it any further. 

One more point :

There is a dedicated Monochrom forum where M10M and M11M owners hang out and discuss their cameras.

Edited January 1 by SrMi

[Jeff S]

BTW, my photography greatly benefited from taking some drawing classes.

Jeff

[fotografr]

22 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

BTW, my photography greatly benefited from taking some drawing classes.

Jeff

I also took a drawing course but there's no way I'd show any of my work to anyone. 

[Jeff S]

14 minutes ago, fotografr said:

I also took a drawing course but there's no way I'd show any of my work to anyone. 

This book has some good exercises…

https://www.amazon.com/Drawing-Right-Side-Brain-Definitive/dp/1585429201/ref=asc_df_1585429201/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312126061109&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9359469423573005068&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9007769&hvtargid=pla-406163951993&psc=1&mcid=e257031d645833f3b7a1df32e847ee91&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIn_Pf0-G8gwMVD4XICh1MKgcCEAQYASABEgIcqfD_BwE
 

Drawing upside down provided some similar learning/seeing  experiences to when I used large format view cameras.  The portrait I drew upside down looked far better than my first attempt at drawing right side up.

Jeff

[fotografr]

38 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

This book has some good exercises…

https://www.amazon.com/Drawing-Right-Side-Brain-Definitive/dp/1585429201/ref=asc_df_1585429201/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312126061109&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9359469423573005068&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9007769&hvtargid=pla-406163951993&psc=1&mcid=e257031d645833f3b7a1df32e847ee91&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIn_Pf0-G8gwMVD4XICh1MKgcCEAQYASABEgIcqfD_BwE
 

Drawing upside down provided some similar learning/seeing  experiences to when I used large format view cameras.  The portrait I drew upside down looked far better than my first attempt at drawing right side up.

Jeff

I think I'll save that for my next life. 

[Jeff S]

9 minutes ago, fotografr said:

I think I'll save that for my next life. 

After your M20M then.

Jeff

[Antonio Russell]

I used to be firmly in the film is best camp until I saw Sebastião Salgado. Amazônia. Wow. 

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[fotografr]

34 minutes ago, Antonio Russell said:

I used to be firmly in the film is best camp until I saw Sebastião Salgado. Amazônia. Wow. 

Absolutely amazing. Unfortunately, I believe he's using Canon cameras these days.