Bifurcation issues reported in the M11m?

[RMF]

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As a former owner of an M10m I’m considering buying an M11m but want to see if there are any reports of birfurcrion issues with the sensor/camera?  My M10m showed the bifurcation issues in the typical circumstances as reported in the forum (plan flat surfaces, turning up the settings in LR, etc..) but after searching this forum in various threads, I  haven’t seen any reports of the issue with the M11m?  Have any M11m owners experienced bifurcation in their photos?

thanks

Edited January 13, 2024 by RMF

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[John Black]

By bifurcation, do you mean two APS-C sensors by joined to form one full frame sensor (ie - 18x24 + 18x24 = 36x24)?  If so, I don't think that's how the M10-M or M11's sensors are produced.

I routinely use dark red filters & polarizers, and with the subsequent edits, the files are purchased very hard.  If these center were produced that way, those extreme contrast setting would very likely exasperate / provoke any such centerfold issues.  I've never seen any hint (1000s and 1000s and 1000s of images) of two sensor halves being stitched to form a full-frame sensor on the M10-M or M11-M.

I'm familiar with this issue, more commonly referred to as 'centerfold'.  Alot of CCD digital backs were made this way, such as the CCD's from Dalsa.  I saw it on the Leica S-006 and the Phase One P65+.  My point being, I have know what to look for it because fixing it can be really difficult to fix in post.

[RMF]

@John Black Quite a few threads on the forum about the issue with the M10M. Here is one of them with samples (see post #48, and also starting at #72, #165…) I only noticed it infrequently with my M10M but it was possible to repro with specific settings in LR. Just curious if anyone encountered it with their M11m.

 

 

Edited January 14, 2024 by RMF

[ramarren]

I bought my M10M in 2022, new. I've tested and tested and can find no evidence of bifurcation. It also arrived in the box with absolutely flawless finish and no dust on the sensor or anything like that. 

G

[Besprosvet]

My M246 once or twice (on tens of thousands of shots) displayed the issue. Unlike the vastly more annoying banding, I was able to fix it on Lightroom with a carefully crafted gradient filter with -0.01 stops value.

[Rollei35]

I assume M11M has same sensor as M11, if so yes it could have bifurcation issue.

My 2 year old M11 has bifurcation issue, but it's not affecting day to day usage. I only see it on a flat one-colour picture and tune way up in the C1.

I don't bother to send it to the factor to fix that.

[jaapv]

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The problem is not a stitched sensor but the electronics. For reading speed the sensor is read out in two halves, each with its own ADC and other electronics. If those components are not within tolerance there may be a centerfold visible. Normally this will be corrected by a calibration file but that may be out of sync. The solution will be a motherboard replacement. So yes, an M11 like any other digital camera can in rare cases display this fault. 
Although sensor stitching was common for CCD sensors it is not widely used for CMOS sensors. 
https://www.photonicsonline.com/doc/tech-briefsstitching-produces-high-resolution-0001

[algrove]

Anyone quoting Digilloyd is totally buying into his problems with Leicas. Also his pseudo friend "Roy" has the same problems. He often makes mountains out of mole hills.

Never had any problems with my M10M using C1, so perhaps the problem is LR.

Edited April 7, 2024 by algrove

[overexposed]

On 4/7/2024 at 4:05 AM, algrove said:

Anyone quoting Digilloyd is totally buying into his problems with Leicas. Also his pseudo friend "Roy" has the same problems. He often makes mountains out of mole hills.

Never had any problems with my M10M using C1, so perhaps the problem is LR.

i can only second that

[hdmesa]

On 4/6/2024 at 8:05 PM, algrove said:

Anyone quoting Digilloyd is totally buying into his problems with Leicas. Also his pseudo friend "Roy" has the same problems. He often makes mountains out of mole hills.

Never had any problems with my M10M using C1, so perhaps the problem is LR.

 

On 4/18/2024 at 3:09 AM, overexposed said:

i can only second that

The problem of bifurcation on the M10M sensor has nothing to do with Lloyd. Several of us have had the issue, but exchanging them for another copy solved it. It’s simply an out of spec sensor, nothing to get excited over unless you actually get one with the issue.

I haven’t read of anyone with this issue on the M11M.

Edited July 4, 2024 by hdmesa

[jplomley]

On 7/4/2024 at 7:40 PM, hdmesa said:

 

The problem of bifurcation on the M10M sensor has nothing to do with Lloyd. Several of us have had the issue, but exchanging them for another copy solved it. It’s simply an out of spec sensor, nothing to get excited over unless you actually get one with the issue.

I haven’t read of anyone with this issue on the M11M.

Can it be fixed without replacing the entire sensor/camera?

[hdmesa]

4 hours ago, jplomley said:

Can it be fixed without replacing the entire sensor/camera?

I don’t think so.

[Rollei35]

8 hours ago, hdmesa said:

I don’t think so.

 

13 hours ago, jplomley said:

Can it be fixed without replacing the entire sensor/camera?

Vast majority of the time you won't even notice it. Only when you crank up the exposure way up on a light or white color picture will you notice the vertical line the middle.

I suggest don't bother, just live with it.

[hdmesa]

On 7/14/2024 at 10:14 PM, Rollei35 said:

 

Vast majority of the time you won't even notice it. Only when you crank up the exposure way up on a light or white color picture will you notice the vertical line the middle.

I suggest don't bother, just live with it.

No way I would live with it. On a landscape with a sky gradient, it’s very noticeable with minor contrast and dehaze added, pretty standard edits for monochrome landscapes. Not easy to clone out without leaving it looking worse than it was to start with, either.

Edited July 16, 2024 by hdmesa

[RMF]

In no way would I live with it either, as once you know it’s on your M10M, it will become a reoccurring issue that’s hangs over every M10 Monochrom photo you shoot thereafter, every time you open a photo in Lightroom you’ll surely check the center line to see if it’s visible or not. After seeing it on my tests with my particular M10M, you can’t unsee it ☹️. 

The reason why I started this thread was to see if there were any reports on the M11m, and if not than I would have more confidence in purchasing one (new or pre-owned). 
 

.

Edited July 16, 2024 by RMF

[Rollei35]

15 hours ago, hdmesa said:

No way I would live with it. On a landscape with a sky gradient, it’s very noticeable with minor contrast and dehaze added, pretty standard edits for monochrome landscapes. Not easy to clone out without leaving it looking worse than it was to start with, either.

I shot many blue bright skies and I don’t see the middle lines. I saw it once only when I shot a complete white background and crank up exposure +3 to check the sensor dust. I guess “noticeable” is a subjective word.

other than that I have never seen it again. And I’m still happy with it .

Edited July 16, 2024 by Rollei35

[Rollei35]

15 hours ago, RMF said:

In no way would I live with it either, as once you know it’s on your M10M, it will become a reoccurring issue that’s hangs over every M10 Monochrom photo you shoot thereafter, every time you open a photo in Lightroom you’ll surely check the center line to see if it’s visible or not. After seeing it on my tests with my particular M10M, you can’t unsee it ☹️. 

The reason why I started this thread was to see if there were any reports on the M11m, and if not than I would have more confidence in purchasing one (new or pre-owned). 
 

.

Well I can definitely be certain m11 and m11m sensors have bifurcation issues. Not all of them but some of them. But they are not bad.

but I guess if you see something then you cannot under it. But I can. It’s just different personalities

[hdmesa]

3 hours ago, Rollei35 said:

I shot many blue bright skies and I don’t see the middle lines. I saw it once only when I shot a complete white background and crank up exposure +3 to check the sensor dust. I guess “noticeable” is a subjective word.

other than that I have never seen it again. And I’m still happy with it .

The severity of the issue varies from sensor to sensor. 

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[hmzimelka]

I had to return a new M10M due to this line. No replacement was available, so I waited for the M11.

When I finally got my M11, I ended up exchanging two units due to various faults... the second camera had a noticeable line down the middle, easily noticeable with minor edits. My first  M11 had this line too, but required severe unrealistic degrees of editing to show it. My third and current camera shows absolutely no trace of it, no matter how hard I try. 

Another high degree of quality variation from Leica. 

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Edited July 30, 2024 by hmzimelka

[RMF]

@hmzimelkaSorry to hear you encountered this on two new bodies (M10M and M11). I saw the issue in my M10M as well. The problem is certainly out there and I’m surprised it’s not mentioned very often here. Thanks for posting the example from an M11 as I’ve never seen this bifurcation in color.

Edited August 2, 2024 by RMF