M11M Images Are Too Perfect

[fotografr]

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Having gone from the M9M to the M10M, I just assumed I would transition to the M11M within a reasonable time after introduction. I prefer to wait a few months with new models to see if there are major problems and I'm glad I waited on the M11M. The freeze ups and other reported problems don't concern me much, but what has made me decide against purchasing one is the appearance of the images. They are too "good." What I see when I look at image samples here and elsewhere are photographs that are razor sharp, noise free, smooth as glass and devoid of character and depth.

Admittedly, my bias comes from having cut my teeth on Tri-X. I shot film for 30 years before the M8 came along. I never considered grain, or silver halide crystals, to be my enemy, but rather an element to be used to enhance a photograph. I like a little grit. I recall shooting my M8 at ISO 2500 and being quite happy that the result looked very much like film grain. The M9M was the same at higher ISO settings. I can still see and use the noise/grain in my M10M, but it's nowhere to be found in the M11M images. Sure, you can add it in post with various software, but then why not just stick with the M10M? 

I get the same feeling when looking at images shot with the Q3. The quest for more megapixels has, in my opinion, reached the point of diminishing returns. For me, it's the M10M forever. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by fotografr

[TeleElmar135mm]

I agree, they look like low grain films in a fine grain developer or a Technical Pan 24 15.

I also come from Tri-X so I used (I had only samples from the net) Nik silver Efex to emulate TRI-X with and without grain. Then they look better but not 100% TRI-X. But that was not expacted. So for me this is a mixed package. A M10M might be better, but for me a new 24MP Mono would be enough.

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[Derbyshire Man]

I too use Silver Efex. My feeling is though that it doesn't take account of the crazy resolution when adding the grain, so although the film sensitivity etc is OK the grain is far too small. I have therefore got some profiles where I soup up the size/density of the grain. Nothing worth passing on but worth an experiment.

[Steadimann]

I noticed this too, but imho necesarily is camera dependan, but rather resolution.

1. All of us got high res screens which make thing smoother. Thing look different at 1080p resolution

2. Sensor resolution makes viewable images so smooth. 
 

i see the same either it’s Gfx 100mgplx, either Q2M, either M11P. But.. things change when viewing images 100% size or full screen at big monitor size 24+ inches. Then you can see all the magic. With 24mgpxl sensors it was ‘easier’ as one would not have to zoom in 100%,75-50 would have been enough.

[SrMi]

If you like film, you want grain, not digital noise. Grain can be added in the post.

[anbucco]

My EPSON P-900 will tell the difference 😉 – or any large format fine art printer.

[Jon Warwick]

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3 hours ago, SrMi said:

If you like film, you want grain, not digital noise. Grain can be added in the post.

Exactly. Fully agree with you. The M11M gives the benefit of an even more precise resolution than the M10M, which is great for larger prints especially for subjects such as landscapes, and I add grain in post production to achieve whatever filmic “look” I want for a specific image. Setting up my drum-scanned negatives next to the Leica DNG has been useful to dial in how much and what type of grain to add in post in ACR, depending on whether I’m targeting a 35mm, 120 or 5x4 rendering. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Jon Warwick

[FlashGordonPhotography]

To me it's not the ISO. It's the super sharp detail from the sensor combined with the modern lenses. I fixed it by using a MATE almost exclusively on my M11M.

Agree on the grain. Easy to add to tase in post.

Gordon

[geotrupede]

for grain -> pump up ISO to 6400 and then you are plenty of, if convert to BW and crop in you get quite a nice effect.

as for resolution, can reduce to 18MP and you have back your M9...  with the advantage of a much longer battery life, light body, a modern screen, live view and generally* much higher speed of operation. Basically a more performing "tool". Files can be adjusted to anything you wish as they have higher latitude. M11 is good.

G.

*apart the reboot on/off time 😉

[fotografr]

Several people have mentioned that grain can be added in post. I'm aware of that and did already mention it in my original comment. I have a Topaz software that does a nice job of adding grain. 

Do any M11M users actually use the 18MP or 36MP settings? I'd enjoy seeing some image samples to see how that impacts what I'm not liking about the appearance of the 60MP images. Any volunteers? 

 

[fotografr]

1 hour ago, geotrupede said:

Basically a more performing "tool". Files can be adjusted to anything you wish as they have higher latitude. M11 is good.

G.

*apart the reboot on/off time 😉

...and the shutter clunk. Also, I'm wondering if the freeze up issue has been resolved? 

[irenedp]

I have been thinking for a while in getting a monochrom for personal use. But after seeing many images on this site, I lean to the M9M or the M260. I’m not in love with the look  of images from the later monochroms and don’t care much about the high ISO capabilities. 

[Jon Warwick]

18 minutes ago, fotografr said:

Several people have mentioned that grain can be added in post. I'm aware of that and did already mention it in my original comment. I have a Topaz software that does a nice job of adding grain. 

 

 

So in that sense, can you rule out that it’s grain / noise as the element that you prefer in the M10M over the M11M, given you have total flexibility to adjust it in post anyhow? The look of “noise free, smooth as glass” that you mentioned isn’t really a function of the M11M per se, or at least doesn’t need to be with post processing?

[intangiblethings]

37 minutes ago, irenedp said:

I have been thinking for a while in getting a monochrom for personal use. But after seeing many images on this site, I lean to the M9M or the M260. I’m not in love with the look  of images from the later monochroms and don’t care much about the high ISO capabilities. 

One thing for me is that my M10M allows me to capture images that arguably would be impossible otherwise. Cause so many more images are, regardless of time are day can be shot stopped down. 

[newtoleica]

I had an original Monochrom and it was so much better than the M9 for tonal rendering and the noise was also quite grain like. With the M10 and above you need to work a bit harder on the image to get the texture/grain etc that you want, but it's all there. I think the difference between the Monos is now simply the handling of the bodies and what else matches battery wise etc. Having a 10-P it will be an 10M for me sometime this year. I finally accepted that ISO/workflow/decent monitor/modern software will produce a much better image at far less hassle than using Tri-X and darkroom printing. The final test will be to get a P900 and see how that works. I've not shot film since March and not used the darkroom stuff for 2 years.

Selling the M7 and picking up a new Q2 last week was probably the final act for film. TBH I've never really 'got on' with film Ms and I've tried them a few times. Loading the film is a pain and with the rather hit and miss RF experience v an SLR I tend to prefer to review what I've shot sometimes.

[Eoin]

Subjectively, I prefer the M10-R's feel in hand over the M11M. Somehow the M11 feels "hollow" or less dense than the M10/M10-R.

I've gotten over the shutter and live metering, it's not so bad, but I still prefer the quiet "snick" of the R, the files from the M11M are some of the best digital files I've ever worked with. 

I'm happy to have files that are "too good" and I'm sure the M10M's files are equally good.

 

 

[fotografr]

1 hour ago, irenedp said:

I have been thinking for a while in getting a monochrom for personal use. But after seeing many images on this site, I lean to the M9M or the M260. I’m not in love with the look  of images from the later monochroms and don’t care much about the high ISO capabilities. 

I love the files from the M9M and it's wonderful CCD sensor. If you can live with the shortcomings of the camera, such as small, low res rear screen and somewhat loud shutter, I'd say go for it. As you probably know, it's critical to get one with a replaced sensor.

Edited December 30, 2023 by fotografr

[irenedp]

5 minutes ago, fotografr said:

I love the files from the M9M and it's wonderful CCD sensor. If you can live with the shortcomings of the camera, such as small, low res rear screen and somewhat loud shutter, I'd say go for it. As you probably know, it's critical to get one with a replaced sensor.

I have an M9P with the sensor changed (15) so well aware of the issues and limitations.  It is the same thing, when I see images coming from the M9 monochrom posted here in the forum, I really love the files. 

[geotrupede]

2 hours ago, fotografr said:

...and the shutter clunk. Also, I'm wondering if the freeze up issue has been resolved? 

to be fair was mostly ok until firmware 2 for me, various and many opinions in other forum corners. but if memory serves me, the M9 also crashes and is battery in and out, I believe the shutter remains stuck. remember that?

not a huge issue but not perfect, plus the buffer which means loosing shots because the camera is recording.

I love and loved the M9 and MM9 in particular but even if colour conversion to BW are not ideal for me, the M11 in colour is so much better than the MM9 that I cannot think to go back... Maybe the M in mono could be an option as I understand that also is a solid platform. But the initial comparison was M11 vs M9 or I understood. If not, plenty of options in between.

Added ->

MM9 is however still a reference camera if you are not in need of speed and can take the few seconds recording time, and are happy to swap batteries. Files are still better in my view but I need speed these days so M11 is the choice for me.

G.

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by geotrupede

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[fotografr]

2 hours ago, Eoin said:

Subjectively, I prefer the M10-R's feel in hand over the M11M. Somehow the M11 feels "hollow" or less dense than the M10/M10-R.

 

 

 

I have both bodies and to me they are virtually identical in weight, feel and function, the only difference being in the fact that the M10M sensor has the Colour Bayer Filter removed. That's actually one of the reasons for my reluctance to get the M11M. It's really nice to have a colour and b&w body that operate the same. 

Edited December 30, 2023 by fotografr