35mm for CCD Monochrom - Summilux ASPH, Summicron ASPH, Summarit or vintage Summicron?

[bcapphoto]

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I've got my M9 Monochrom (CCD) on its way, and it should be here next week. My other body is an M6. 

I currently have the 50mm Summilux ASPH, but I'm thinking of swapping it for a slightly more vintage 50mm - perhaps the v3 or v5. 

I'm thinking about which 35mm I want to get; I'm thinking: 

• I've had an offer to swap my 50mm Summilux ASPH for a 35mm Summilux ASPH FLE, so that's an option.
• I found a good price on a nice 35mm Summicron ASPH (v1) here locally.
• I used to have the 35mm Summicron v3, and I loved the character out of it, though it's a bit old. However, I thought it might render beautifully on the Monochrom CCD. 
• The other option is the 35mm Summary 2.5, which I've heard nothing but good things about. 
• Another option would be to go with the 35mm Zeiss Biogon f/2.8, which I've heard nothing but good things about. 

Does anyone want to weigh in on their experiences with any of these in comparison? Specifically, on the CCD Monochrom would be great to hear!

[pippy]

It really depends on how you like your photographs to look.

FWIW the two 35mm lenses which I prefer to use with my M9M (in 'most often favoured' order) are a 1974 v2 Summilux and a 2022 LightLensLab '8 Element'(*). For both the sort of subject-matter I tend to shoot and also the sort of rendering I happen to enjoy when using a 35 these lenses are ideal but I fully realise that my preferences might well be atypical as the only time I prefer the look of the rendering from an ASPH lens with my snapping is when shooting with a 28mm.

FWIW Pt. 2; If you decide to spend the lion's share of your budget on a much more 'Modern-Rendering' lens such as the ASPH FLE yet still have an itch for something a bit 'vintage' then you could do an awful lot worse than to pick up an old FSU Jupiter-12 35mm f2.8. These are, pretty much, copies of the pre-WWII Zeiss Biogon and have a rendering which is typical of those lenses; i.e. contrasty and very sharp in the centre with some softness apparent towards the edges and corners at the wider end of the aperture-range which doesn't really vanish until around f8 or so. They can be had in LTM mount in great condition for very little money. I use mine (a Black-Paint example dating from, IIRC, 1975) with my 1930 Leica 1(a) to 1(c) conversion as well as on my M-mount Leicas with the appropriate adapter and have never been disappointed with the results.

Just a thought!

Philip.

* Essentially an exact reverse-engineered replica of the v1 (1958-1974) Summicron.

Edited November 11, 2023 by pippy

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[Jeff S]

There are myriad ways to influence the rendering of pic, from shot/lighting to PP  to print/paper and display lighting.  I’ve used the same lenses on my M9M that I’ve used on my prior M’s, film and digital.  Currently, that includes the 50 Summilux ASPH v.1, 35 Summicron ASPH v.1, 35 Summilux ASPH v.1 (FLE), and 28 Summicron ASPH v.1.

My print renderings vary greatly, even when using the same body/lens. It’s really not the gear, at least not to the degree that a gear oriented forum often suggests.  Otherwise, all of our pics using the same gear would look similar.  I’d probably switch creative hobbies if that were the case. 

Jeff

[elgenper]

FWIW, with both the M9 and the M9M, my aged Summicron 35 8 lens (Version 1) is the only 35 I ever use; I do have an Asph V1 that I bought with the M9 in 2010, thinking that I must have someting more modern than that old lens...🙄.  Well, after a lengthy visit at Leica Service for the Asph, I was forced to get "that old lens" out of the cupboard and use it for months (we all know Leica Service...).  And, when the Asph finally returned, I tested it for a few weeks, and then returned to "that old lens" for good.  The Asph languishes in the cupboard.

Why?  The oldie has character, draws just beautifully, and is smaller, lighter and more solid.  Fully open, it has lots of "Leica glow", and low contrast, just perfect in some circumstances.  From 2.8 upwards, it is quite sharp, but never as clinical as the Asph.  Slightly less contrast, more sensitive for flare, but just beautiful!

The Asph is sharp and "no-nonsense", from f/2 all the way up.  But, no character.  I own both the Lux 50 Asph and the 75/2 Apo; both are even sharper than the 35 Asph, but they draw much more beautiful, and with their own characters.  They are very different from that old 35, but I have no problems with using them on the same location.

Edit: I attach a picture taken with the 8-lens 35, taken while the Asph was serviced.  At that time, I didn´t yet own the M9M, so it was taken with the M9 and converted to B/W.

 

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Edited November 12, 2023 by elgenper

[a.noctilux]

@bcapphoto

I have good news for you.

 

Each lens will do wonder on this monochrom nice unparallel sensor, so no worry.

I use Monochrom with the modest Summarit-M 2.5/35, 50, 75 and the weak element is me, not the lens.

[geotrupede]

In praise of the M9M... what a wonderful machine!

if you are after the top  that your new camera can deliver, it is probably sharpness and detail that you are after. F1.4 and similar are not really needed, and a more modest aperture can give excellent results. Maybe you could be looking at a 2.8/2.5 lens, which is then cheaper, smaller, lighter and crisper? This is for more objective photography look.

if you instead are after bokeh, I can recommend the VC 35 1.2 which is a great lens, any incarnation (but I see version 3 is smaller) will give excellent and moody results. 

Also, raw files out of camera use linear profile, so you need to tweak in post and create your own signature curve (or use a preset). crashing deep expressive blacks, etc. In practise, be prepared to work a little in post with the files for max satisfaction.

Last but not least, the files can be underexposed by a large margin (2 stops not an issue) and that helps with preserving highlights. ISO not an issue up to 3200, beyond grain is more visible, which can be a pleasing effect unless you zoom into the images.

there is no need to apply sharpness...

Enjoy!

G.

 

 

[ramarren]

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I have used essentially the same lenses on M9, M-P 240, M-D 262, and now M10-M and M10-R. They range from one prior to current series Summicron-M 28/2 to 1960 Hektor 135/4.5 in RF M-mount. Also a small batch of Voigtländer 10, 21, 28, and 50mm. All work beautifully and display their native character on all the cameras ... not one seemed particularly different or special on the M9 in any way different from how it is special or different on the M10-R. 

So ... Pick whatever lenses you like to use and go take a mess of photos with them. Forget about finding "the perfect lens" or "the perfect lens for the M9". Most of the distinctions are self-inflicted phantasms. A great lens of whatever era and type is always a great lens. 

G

[newtoleica]

They are all very good, but there are subtle differences.

on the 35mm the summilux ASPH v1 is a good balance with soft bokeh and sharpness. The FLE is harsher and the latest has the 3-D look of modern Leica. I use the v1. It has a little focus shift but intend to use it wide open or at f8. 
I find the older pre-ASPH lenses a bit ‘swirly’ - it’s all a matter of taste. 
The 50 summilux ASPH is a good lens, but can show hexagonal bokeh balls at f2.8. 

[IkarusJohn]

On 11/12/2023 at 6:02 AM, Jeff S said:

There are myriad ways to influence the rendering of pic, from shot/lighting to PP  to print/paper and display lighting.  I’ve used the same lenses on my M9M that I’ve used on my prior M’s, film and digital.  Currently, that includes the 50 Summilux ASPH v.1, 35 Summicron ASPH v.1, 35 Summilux ASPH v.1 (FLE), and 28 Summicron ASPH v.1.

My print renderings vary greatly, even when using the same body/lens. It’s really not the gear, at least not to the degree that a gear oriented forum often suggests.  Otherwise, all of our pics using the same gear would look similar.  I’d probably switch creative hobbies if that were the case. 

Jeff

He could rent!

[John McDade]

I've had fine B&W photos with a Voigtlander 35mm f.1.7 Ultron, a modest purchase by comparison with other lenses.  My favourite though is the Zeiss 35mm 1.4 which seems to me to be outstanding.  Expensive though!  Good luck.

[Jeff S]

21 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

He could rent!

No, he lives in Canada.  Try to keep up.

Jeff

[IkarusJohn]

On 11/22/2023 at 3:28 PM, ramarren said:

I have used essentially the same lenses on M9, M-P 240, M-D 262, and now M10-M and M10-R. They range from one prior to current series Summicron-M 28/2 to 1960 Hektor 135/4.5 in RF M-mount. Also a small batch of Voigtländer 10, 21, 28, and 50mm. All work beautifully and display their native character on all the cameras ... not one seemed particularly different or special on the M9 in any way different from how it is special or different on the M10-R. 

So ... Pick whatever lenses you like to use and go take a mess of photos with them. Forget about finding "the perfect lens" or "the perfect lens for the M9". Most of the distinctions are self-inflicted phantasms. A great lens of whatever era and type is always a great lens. 

G

I don’t really buy into particular lenses being better for particular cameras. I have the M9 Monochrom and an M10-D and use all of my lenses on each.

I have bought and sold a number of lenses over the years, and have settled on what works for me.  I don’t think the M system works that well beyond 90mm (75mm is my limit), so I have settled on old and new in my favoured focal lengths. For 35mm, I have the Summilux pre-asph v2 and the APO Summicron.  That gives me Mandler and Karbe choices.

As to which works best on the Monochrom, they all do really.  The Monochrom has the feel of more resolution (compared to the M10) and being black and white has a vintage feel which works well with older lenses. But images taken with modern lenses sparkle. I’d stick with what you have, and then experiment.  I use my 50 Summilux ASPH with my Monochrom a lot.  

I’m not a fan of the 35 Summilux ASPH in any version - the original non-FLE has focus shift and the out of focus rendition of the FLE is too busy for my taste.  The Summilux pre-asph is a lovely little lens, but tricky with “glow” and nasty veiling flare. The 35 APO Summicron is fantastic, but hard to get and expensive.

My tuppence.  Good luck - it’s a fabulous camera.