Is the M10 the last “Real” Leica ?

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7 hours ago, rramesh said:

The M10 comes closest and is probably what you need.  Plus if one doesn’t use the UVF, LCD and WiFi, the battery life is ample. 

I'll probably upgrade eventually to the M11M if it has the same weight saving as the black aluminum M11. 

[Sailronin]

2 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Coming from an SL2 you'll be bummed by the operational ergonomics of the M9M (screen, buffer, body thickness, shutter sound etc). It's what ultimately made me sell mine a couple of years ago (with a new sensor at great cost to me) and recently purchased a 'used' brand new M10M (user bought it, never actually opened the box, and I got it for $7k). Jury is out on image quality, though I think at lower iso's the M9M might be better SOOC, but the M10M files are much more malleable, and of course the iso goes much higher (and lower). I may not even use mine that much, but the pair of M10-R black paint and M10M are end game for me. 

Hi, an M9 was my prime camera for  7 or 8 years, the M9M has the same dimensions so it will be OK.  I've only played with the SL2 series in stores so not invested yet.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Sailronin

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[IkarusJohn]

10 hours ago, andyturk said:

…

My point was that the M10-D--intended to recreate the film-M user experience--basically failed (IMO) because it traded a functional LCD menu system for an abysmal mobile app. Sure, some folks get along with an M10-D in spite of not being able to tell how much space is left on the SD card (much less format one), or see how much juice is left in the battery, but it remains a niche product for nostalgic customers. For the record, I think the faux-winder is brilliant and should be standard on every digital M.

…

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As you turn on the M10-D, the SD capacity and Battery capacity flash up in the view finder.  

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[Tessar.]

On 2/3/2022 at 5:06 AM, caloosajo said:

M10-E with 24mp BSI and quiet shutter in gray paint and/or a readily available film M, and I’m over the moon.

A bit late to the discussion but this is exactly what I would want in a new M body, and with default metering off the shutter curtain, which I prefer. 

Metering off the curtain IMHO is predictable and I know how to override it in most lighting.  With off the sensor metering, how do you know what the camera has decided is the correct exposure with its database of thousands of image examples? it's much more trial and error?  For me it would encourage chimping, which would make the whole experience less pleasurable.

I guess the price of used M10Rs will indicate how popular the older haptics are.  

I prefer the old baseplate too, but I do use an M240/M262 and so don't have to remove the battery too often.

[SrMi]

3 hours ago, Tessar. said:

A bit late to the discussion but this is exactly what I would want in a new M body, and with default metering off the shutter curtain, which I prefer. 

Metering off the curtain IMHO is predictable and I know how to override it in most lighting.  With off the sensor metering, how do you know what the camera has decided is the correct exposure with its database of thousands of image examples? it's much more trial and error?  For me it would encourage chimping, which would make the whole experience less pleasurable.

I guess the price of used M10Rs will indicate how popular the older haptics are.  

I prefer the old baseplate too, but I do use an M240/M262 and so don't have to remove the battery too often.

Off-sensor metering has the same spot and center weighted metering modes as the off-shutter-curtain metering. 

[Pixeleater]

I love my M10-R. The only thing I’d change is a built-in adjustable diopter. Other than that it works for me. I have the SL2-S if I want a different experience. 

[otto.f]

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7 hours ago, SrMi said:

Off-sensor metering has the same spot and center weighted metering modes as the off-shutter-curtain metering. 

spot metering from the curtain? which M has that?

[otto.f]

6 hours ago, Pixeleater said:

I love my M10-R. The only thing I’d change is a built-in adjustable diopter. Other than that it works for me. I have the SL2-S if I want a different experience. 

Is that possible? I thought a diopter is a kind of reading glass, which works only on a fixed distance. This is possible if you look onto the mirroR of an SLR or the EVF-screen. But in a rangefinder you look at different distances in reality. Just curious

[jakontil]

On 2/4/2022 at 4:01 AM, otto.f said:

I have an M7 now, and with the ADOX Scala in it, it feels like the Monochrome I sold

I have monochrome for quite a while and shots beautiful images with it, but i still prefer my MP with ilford for that matter

[otto.f]

3 minutes ago, jakontil said:

I have monochrome for quite a while and shots beautiful images with it, but i still prefer my MP with ilford for that matter

In the end, you have more variety in character of the image by using different sorts of films which keep on coming these days. No matter how skilled the postprocessing of a Monochrome photo, there’s nothing like silver grain.

[rramesh]

10 hours ago, Pixeleater said:

I love my M10-R. The only thing I’d change is a built-in adjustable diopter. Other than that it works for me. I have the SL2-S if I want a different experience. 

It would be very difficult to this without impacting the ability to view frame lines, I think. 

[sutlore]

I could now see the future trend of M system and I feel so lucky that I bought the M10-P.

I could say that the reason I bought the M10-P is about the unique design and how simple the camera is. The megapixel, the advanced technology are not the reasons that convinced me to get into the M system. As I have seen what Leica intends to do to M system in the up coming future, my interest in M cameras will be gradually decreased.

[Mikep996]

"As I have seen what Leica intends to do to M system in the up coming future, my interest in M cameras will be gradually decreased."

I tend to agree.  The M10 is my first digital Leica.  I sold all my Leica film gear in the early 00's and switched to digital.  I had no interest at all in any of the digital M cameras until the 10 came out.  Until that time I didn't care for the "feel" of the Leica digital Ms but the M10 felt much like my old M6 which was my favorite of the three M's I had owned - M2, M6, M7.

The "feel" of the camera is the most important thing to me.  ANY camera I have ever owned, including my iPhone 11 Pro,  can take better photographs than I can so I base camera buying on my "enjoyment" using the camera.  The M10 (and my old M6) supplied that more than any other camera system I have used and I've owned/used/sold pretty much all the usual suspects in 35mm film and digital formats.

I'm not seeing anything in the reviews of the 11 that make me think I would like the camera as much as the 10 series.  None of the changes provide anything I need. I realize I may be in a minority of one with this view: frankly, I'd rather have video than anything else they put in the M11!  For me it's handy to have it in a carry-around camera rather than pull out the iPhone every time I want a video!  😱

In any case, I can't say the 10 is the last real Leica M because the M11 is made by Leica and it's an M per Leica.  I will say that I think the 10 series is the last "traditional" Leica M.  

 

 

 

 

[adan]

6 hours ago, otto.f said:

Is that possible? I thought a diopter is a kind of reading glass, which works only on a fixed distance. This is possible if you look onto the mirroR of an SLR or the EVF-screen. But in a rangefinder you look at different distances in reality. Just curious

The focusing patch of the Leica (and the framelines, and the meter readout) are at a fixed virtual distance. I forget the exact distance, but something like 1-2 meters (but not to be confused with the size of the framelines, which are also, but separately, optimized for lens framing at 2 m). The Leica RF/VF already has a fixed diopter to do that (for people with 20/20 vision) - something like a built-in -0.5 diopter.

But not everyone has 20/20 vision - so in fact Leica already provides a full set of add-on corrective diopter lenses for less-than-perfect eyes. Or depending on whether photographers prefer to photograph with their glasses on or off.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/products/Eyepiece-Accessories/ci/19005/N/3777857693?filters=fct_brand_name%3Aleica

The problem there is that aging eyes lose some or most of their ability to accomodate to different distances The little muscles that stretch or compress the lens in the eye become weak, or the natural lens itself becomes stiff and inflexible (see: bifocal or vari-focal eyeglasses). Or the eyes even vary on their own from hour to hour or day to day, due to medications for eye ailments (glaucoma, etc.)

At $200 each, it gets expensive to keep a whole set of Leica's Correction Lenses v.II around. As well as a pain to keep track of them and keep swapping them for "morning eyes," or "midday eyes" or "evening eyes." So a single variable-power/diopter unit would be useful.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/photography/tips-and-solutions/calibrating-diopter-your-camera

(I'm lucky - my aging eyes work fine with the Leica viewfinder from 1.5m to infinity - when my glasses are on. If I need to see the RF patch sharp at closer distances, I just take my glasses off, and that works fine too.)

The real problem with a variable-diopter corrective lens is that it is essentially a "zoom lens," with multiple moving glass elements (and air space in between, for them to move around in).

One of those, unlike the slim single-diopters for the M, would stick out from the back of the eyepiece by a cm or more - just like the variable eyepiece "tubes or boxes" built into the S/SL/CL/Q, and other cameras (see image below).

It would create "tunnel vision," making it hard(er) to see the 28 or even 35 framelines, as rramesh suggests. As well as being "inelegant" sticking out from the slim M body. Won't ever happen as a built-in feature in an M camera - although Leica might produce a screw-in accessory version.

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[otto.f]

Thanks, adan, very clear!

[SrMi]

7 hours ago, otto.f said:

spot metering from the curtain? which M has that?

You are correct, only center-weighted metering is possible from the curtain. Thank you for the correction!

M11 allows two additional metering types in RF mode: spot and multi-field.

 

[IkarusJohn]

2 hours ago, SrMi said:

You are correct, only center-weighted metering is possible from the curtain. Thank you for the correction!

M11 allows two additional metering types in RF mode: spot and multi-field.

 

Sorry to keep repeating the distinctions, but with both the M11 and the M10 (with the EVF), you get centre-weighted, spot and multi-field metering off the sensor.  With the M10 and all previous M cameras back to to the M6 (except the M-A), you also get the centre-weighted metering off the shutter curtain.  Now, the latter might not be as accurate as spot and centre weighted off the sensor, but it is consistent and has been for decades.  I know what’s being measured.

With multi-field, however, I don’t have that control.  Perhaps it’s just me being stuck in the mud, but it’s just another choice like AWB, Auto-Iso, Snapshot mode (remember that), the P and A settings and every other choice the camera makes for me that I would rather avoid.  So, for me, no the multi-field meter option is not a better choice.  Tried it on my other cameras, and dumped it.

Now, much like video (or even the LCD) and other features, I could set up an M11 with one resolution, no cropping, no electronic shutter and just centre weighted metering, sunny day white balance, one ISO etc … I would then be looking at my M10-D and asking myself what I’d gained?  No baseplate, better battery, better dynamic range, USB-C, reduced internal flare (not a problem I’ve noticed so far) … Not enough.  Worse, they’ve just included a lot of stuff I don’t want and don’t like.

Am I bashing the camera or other people’s choices?  No, expressing my own opinion.  Why?  Maybe Leica will listen?  Have I tried it?  No.  I have three M cameras already, so I know what one’s like in the hand.  I don’t think there will be any in the country for me to try, and why would I bother.  I’m very happy with what I have.  I don’t need to handle a camera with an LCD and lots of features I don’t want or neeed to say “not for me”.  

If they brought out an M11-D?  Well, that would depend (see the other thread) - one resolution, no cropping, return to centre weighted metering off the shutter - I might be interested.

Every move away from just the basics detrracts from the M paradigm for me.  I have an SL and I have a TL2, and I really like them.  But my M cameras I like to be completely stripped back to the minimum I need to capture the best DNG files I can with those basics and the best lenses.

[Jeff S]

2 hours ago, adan said:

The focusing patch of the Leica (and the framelines, and the meter readout) are at a fixed virtual distance. I forget the exact distance, but something like 1-2 meters (but not to be confused with the size of the framelines, which are also, but separately, optimized for lens framing at 2 m).

2 meters (-.5 diopter)

Jeff

Edited February 5, 2022 by Jeff S

[Pixeleater]

9 hours ago, otto.f said:

Is that possible? I thought a diopter is a kind of reading glass, which works only on a fixed distance. This is possible if you look onto the mirroR of an SLR or the EVF-screen. But in a rangefinder you look at different distances in reality. Just curious

I use the diopter correction lens for the rangefinder window focus patch, but periodically lose them when they loosen/unscrew. It gets expensive at $200 each. The utility of having it built-in to the viewfinder would eliminate losing them and allow me to make incremental adjustments as my eyesight slowly changes/deteriorates.

 

 

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[Pixeleater]

3 hours ago, adan said:

One of those, unlike the slim single-diopters for the M, would stick out from the back of the eyepiece by a cm or more - just like the variable eyepiece "tubes or boxes" built into the S/SL/CL/Q, and other cameras (see image below).

It would create "tunnel vision," making it hard(er) to see the 28 or even 35 framelines, as rramesh suggests. As well as being "inelegant" sticking out from the slim M body. Won't ever happen as a built-in feature in an M camera - although Leica might produce a screw-in accessory version.

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Adan, I agree with your observation about the likely design impact on the M body, and the form follows function consideration. The CL version isn't too objectionable and I find the SL2 version to be visually pleasing.

As always, I appreciate your thorough commentary on topics.