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Is the M10 the last “Real” Leica ?


Mike Hawley

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4 minutes ago, pgk said:

I think that there may well be a market for a mid-20s MPixel, manual only M camera in an M10 body - a 'classic' re-iteration (Leica seems to be happy to make 'specials'). Pitched at a lower price point such a camera could be a pofitable entry into Leica cameras in general. It would need to be minimalist though.

I think you are right. The Sony mass produced 24 mpx sensor and the Leica rangefinder in an M10 body. 

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2 hours ago, tom0511 said:

The last real Leica was the one, where photogrsphers would spend more time using it than talking about it ;)

Via the Royal Photographic Society website you can access their Journal online which goes back to the 1850s. If you read some of the early Journals you will find that photographers have always (as in; since photography was invented) spent too much time discussing equipment.

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Am 1.2.2022 um 11:30 schrieb evikne:

I understand that Leica must participate in the technological rat race, but can't they please leave the M alone?...

I think they still do!

Leica is in a very comfortable situation:.
The M covers a small niche for RF enthusiats who like these kind of photography based on "Das Wesentliche".
For all the others they offer the L-Mount system wiht every thechnical stuff you might need to have; even adapters for your old M-lenses.

So I don't understand peoply wishing a M with integrated EVF or other similar "toy-stuff" which makes a M to a me-too product.
 

Edited by cp995
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1 hour ago, pippy said:

When has that ever happened?......:-k......

Philip.

Before the internet!

In which times, the hoi polloi could only comment on cameras by writing Letters To The Editor of various print magazines (including LHSA Viewfinder) and hoping they got published, in a probable ratio of about 1 in 10000.

(Ah, Peace; it was Wonderful!)

......................

IMHO the last "real Leica M" was arguably the M9/MM/ME (natural-light frameline illumination, three windows on the front, limited to the "film speed" of TMax 3200 (barely) except the MM).

I skipped the plain "M" (a.k.a Typ 240) in fairly large part for that reason

Although the M9 was a bit pudgy, which the M10 resolved. And I won't argue with those who would claim the MP/M-A.

But so was the M4 - you should have been around for the intro for the "zinc with steel gears, made in Canada" M4-2. "Not as smooth as a real Leica! - Not hand-finished by the Gnomes of Wetzlar! - No self-timer!" Blah-blah-blah.

(The M5 we know about.)

And so were the M2/3 - because the M4 began the abomination of two framelines at once (35/135), and the quick-load system meant putting the film in was no longer a sacred ritual. 

(I say that as proud new owner of an "M2-4" - M2 "upgraded" with M4 viewfinder and loading system ;) )

As tools, I have no issues with "improved models" - assuming the improvement actually delivers something useful to me. ISO 10000 has opened new doors for my photography!

..................

As to the economics of "planned obsolence," that really dates back to the causes of the Great Depression. Which were manifold, but included the fact the by the late 1920s, sales of the 20th-century's first wave of modern products (automobile, radio, gramophone, home refrigerator) had started to flat-line, once a large proportion of Western populations already had one. There's a reason the "same as 1908, any color you want so long as it's black" Model T was finally replaced by the colorful Model A (1927) - which was replaced in just 4 years by the Model B II (a.k.a. 1932 "Deuce") - and so on.

Digital stand-alone cameras are generally hitting that same wall right about now (most newcomers these days are companies belatedly jumping on the mirrorless bandwagon). The first 20 years of the 21st century were to photograpy what the first 20 years of the 20th century were to other industries - huge innovation and expansion in "all directions at once," followed by saturated markets.

Edited by adan
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5 hours ago, pgk said:

I think that there may well be a market for a mid-20s MPixel, manual only M camera in an M10 body - a 'classic' re-iteration (Leica seems to be happy to make 'specials'). Pitched at a lower price point such a camera could be a pofitable entry into Leica cameras in general. It would need to be minimalist though.

What about a basic digital re-iteration of the iconic M3, same body design...

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On 2/1/2022 at 9:27 AM, Mike Hawley said:

Now the dust on the M11 launch is starting to settle and the marketing hype is analysed I wonder whether Leica enthusiasts will ponder why Leica are trying to compete with Sony, Fujifilm et al in producing high-tech, automated, electronic M  cameras. The charm and challenge of the M series is surely rooted in its minimalist reliance on automation and its finely engineered mechanical excellence. The combination of a finely crafted product and the need to use your own skill and experience is the USP of the Leica M series.
Leica already produce a range of cameras that compete directly with the Japanese products (SL. Q. etc) why has the M series been sacrificed on the altar of high tech automation and mega megapixels? The M11 would appear to replicate Fujifilms excellent X-pro3  without the EVF option and with the unwanted additional file size.

The concept of metering off the sensor is utilised in all mirror less cameras and is undoubtedly more accurate than having to use your own knowledge and experience but the input of the photographer is surely central to the M series experience. As to the increased sensor size 24 megapixels is more than adequate to produce 80cm prints so unless I’m going into billboard production why would I need 60mp ?
I understand the marketing imperative of newer, bigger, better, easier to use but surely the Leica M series is the last bastion of traditional, thought based photography and shouldn’t be subject to the commercial pressures of a misguided marketing department. 

The previous M's already metered TTL, but practically only through a central portion. How does changing he metering method make it any less traditional?

Also from what I read, there is the option to save smaller files instead of the fully 60MP. 

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On 2/1/2022 at 3:02 AM, evikne said:

Pretty much. I prefer the design and slimness of the M10-D. And the app could be useful. But maybe connected with a USB cable instead of cumbersome Wi-Fi.

daydreaming...

An M11-D without a rear LCD could work if it was paired with a very responsive Bluetooth app to manage camera settings. Leica's Wi-Fi attempt at camera control on the M10 was not usable. I also wish they'd go back to optical framelines in the viewfinder instead of the LED framelines that require the entire system to wake from sleep.

And finally, I wish that Leica would make it possible for 3rd parties to sell compatible batteries. You may have noticed that while you can buy off-brand batteries for your M8 and M9s, only Leica branded batteries are available for the M10 (and they're expensive!). It appears that Leica has embedded circuitry inside the BP-SCL5s that communicates with the camera body at regular intervals. Without that communication, the camera shuts down. I assume the M11 batteries work the same way.

This is the same idea as printer manufacturers putting chips in their ink cartridges and forcing you to buy OEM ink. Imagine the outrage if Leica forced you to use Leica-branded $300 SD cards in their digital cameras, or only Leica-branded film in your M7.

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1 hour ago, andyturk said:

An M11-D without a rear LCD could work if it was paired with a very responsive Bluetooth app to manage camera settings.

If it worked, it might be even better than USB. But then it had to work seamlessly, without any kind of hassle. Because with an M-D, hassle free operation is alpha and omega.

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There are essentially three Leica phase with the M. 

a) No Battery Phase - everything mechanical. Most M film cameras here. 

b) Battery Phase - Started with the M8.

c) 'Battery-never-enough' Phase - Essentially when the discussion always veers towards “how many photos can this camera take before it flat-lines.”

Edited by rramesh
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6 hours ago, rramesh said:

There are essentially three Leica phase with the M. 

a) No Battery Phase - everything mechanical. Most M film cameras here. 

b) Battery Phase - Started with the M8.

c) 'Battery-never-enough' Phase - Essentially when the discussion always veers towards “how many photos can this camera take before it flat-lines.”

AFAIK, Leica M5 (1971) was the first Leica with battery.

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Whatever your idea of a "real" Leica is, the nice thing is that you can continue to use it for quite a long time and produce the images you like.  I can understand Leica wanting to move the M11 into the more modern age with its advancements, but that doesn't diminish the intrinsic value or enjoyment of using the older gear.  

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"Leica" meant Leitz Camera - so the last real Leica was just before the family sold the company. Now "Leica" is just a marketing brand that can be applied to anything by whoever owns the trademark at the current time. Same is true with a lot of old brand products where new owners bought the trademarks for marketing reasons.

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21 hours ago, andyturk said:

An M11-D without a rear LCD could work if it was paired with a very responsive Bluetooth app to manage camera settings. Leica's Wi-Fi attempt at camera control on the M10 was not usable. I also wish they'd go back to optical framelines in the viewfinder instead of the LED framelines that require the entire system to wake from sleep.

19 hours ago, evikne said:

If it worked, it might be even better than USB. But then it had to work seamlessly, without any kind of hassle. Because with an M-D, hassle free operation is alpha and omega.

I really have to wonder about mindsets which propose that a camera that must be "propped up" with a smartphone, apps, and wifi/Bluetooth is somehow the alpha and omega of simplicity and hassle-free operation. ;)

Some people drink the "Silicon Valley Kool-Aid" - and some appear to drown in it. ;)

And - BTW - the Leica M framelines as such are still optical and mechanical (slits cut in sheet metal) - they are just backlit by an LED instead of a window.

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I'm an interloper to this thread as the last digital M I owned was the M9. My current Leica cameras are an analog MP and the S(006).  Looking at the M10 and M11 they do nothing to interest me in the least as I have no need for video and if I were to need live view (which is very tempting with the TS APO ELMAR S lens) I would go for the SL2. This system is the perfect platform for M lenses along with the ability to use long telephoto or S series lenses due to much better EVF and weather sealing.  After owning M6, M7, M8, M9, three MPs and two HB X-Pans over the past 3 decades the idea of the "rangefinder ethos" counts for nothing with me vs. the simplicity of the MP or versatility of an SL series as noted above.

Edited by Sailronin
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7 hours ago, rramesh said:

There are essentially three Leica phase with the M. 

a) No Battery Phase - everything mechanical. Most M film cameras here. 

b) Battery Phase - Started with the M8.

c) 'Battery-never-enough' Phase - Essentially when the discussion always veers towards “how many photos can this camera take before it flat-lines.”

Nope, battery phase with M5, and then M7 where if no battery one could only shoot at one mechanical speed. 

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5 minutes ago, Sailronin said:

I'm an interloper to this thread as the last digital M I owned was the M9. My current Leica cameras are an analog MP and the S(006).  Looking at the M10 and M11 they do nothing to interest me in the least as I have no need for video and if I were to need live view (which is very tempting with the TS APO ELMAR S lens) I would go for the SL2. This system is the perfect platform for M lenses along with the ability to use long telephoto or S series lenses due to much better EVF and weather sealing.  After owning M6, M7, M8, M9, three MPs over the past 3 decades the idea of the "rangefinder ethos" counts for nothing with me vs. the simplicity of the MP or versatility of an SL series as noted above.

No video in M10 or 11. 

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