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Is the M10 the last “Real” Leica ?


Mike Hawley

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3 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

No video in M10 or 11. 

Tricky question. The M10/11 clearly stream a full-motion "video" output to the EVF or rear LCD, when those are in use. EVFs and "Live-view" LCDs are basically televisions.

They simply do not include a recording capabiity for that video stream. ;)

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41 minutes ago, adan said:

I really have to wonder about mindsets which propose that a camera that must be "propped up" with a smartphone, apps, and wifi/Bluetooth is somehow the alpha and omega of simplicity and hassle-free operation. ;)

The very best would have been if it was possible to make all necessary settings from the camera itself, without any connections at all, including manual selection of uncoded lenses.

Edited by evikne
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My personal criteria for an M camera:

1. Optical Viewfinder

2. M Mount Lenses

3. Compact Size similar to the original M3

4. Full Frame Film/Sensor 

5. Mechanical Shutter

So far the only M's that violate those criteria are the M5 due to its size and the M8 due to its sensor size.  M240 flirted with violating the 3rd criteria.  The M11 is flirting with violating the 5th criteria but technically still qualifies.   I'm not stating that the M8 or M5 are bad cameras, but they are not classic M's in my mind.  

Edited by mediumformula
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5 minutes ago, mediumformula said:

So far the only M's that violate those criteria are the M5 due to its size and the M8 due to its sensor size.  M240 flirted with violating the 3rd criteria.  The M11 is flirting with violating the 5th criteria but technically still qualifies.   I'm not stating that the M8 or M5 are bad cameras, but they are not classic M's in my mind.  

I agreed about the M5 when it first came out. Much later I realized that an M3 with an MR meter attached was similar bulk to the M5. Decades later I picked up an M5, and it has become a favorite M, and still developed by the Ernst Leitz company.

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3 hours ago, adan said:

I really have to wonder about mindsets which propose that a camera that must be "propped up" with a smartphone, apps, and wifi/Bluetooth is somehow the alpha and omega of simplicity and hassle-free operation. ;)

Some people drink the "Silicon Valley Kool-Aid" - and some appear to drown in it. ;)

And - BTW - the Leica M framelines as such are still optical and mechanical (slits cut in sheet metal) - they are just backlit by an LED instead of a window.

“propped up”?  “Kool-Aid”?

As the Victorians used to say, “Your slip’s showing” Andy! 😀

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On 2/1/2022 at 11:30 AM, evikne said:

I understand that Leica must participate in the technological rat race, but can't they please leave the M alone? At least, I wish Leica could offer one M version, in addition to the others, that is completely stripped of unnecessary features. As close to an analog M as possible, just with a digital sensor.

That essentially means: no screen, a few good MP. And leave the rest to the others.

Yes !

A kind of M10M-D  :) 

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Sorry, I have shot a few tests with the M11 in the Leica store. Wrong about video, was thinking of the SL2 s slanted more towards video.  Still no interest in M11 as stated in my original post.  Am thinking about an M9M if I could pick one up with a new sensor.

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5 minutes ago, otto.f said:

Good thinking!, you do not need a more recent Monochrome, IMHO

Have been thinking about one for years.  Right now my MP is a "monochrom" as I shoot only B&W film for ease of processing at home. Not sure if I need two monochrome cameras..but sure would be fun..

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2 minutes ago, Sailronin said:

Have been thinking about one for years.  Right now my MP is a "monochrom" as I shoot only B&W film for ease of processing at home. Not sure if I need two monochrome cameras..but sure would be fun..

I have an M7 now, and with the ADOX Scala in it, it feels like the Monochrome I sold

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On 2/2/2022 at 2:34 PM, andyturk said:

daydreaming...

An M11-D without a rear LCD could work if it was paired with a very responsive Bluetooth app to manage camera settings. Leica's Wi-Fi attempt at camera control on the M10 was not usable. I also wish they'd go back to optical framelines in the viewfinder instead of the LED framelines that require the entire system to wake from sleep.

And finally, I wish that Leica would make it possible for 3rd parties to sell compatible batteries. You may have noticed that while you can buy off-brand batteries for your M8 and M9s, only Leica branded batteries are available for the M10 (and they're expensive!). It appears that Leica has embedded circuitry inside the BP-SCL5s that communicates with the camera body at regular intervals. Without that communication, the camera shuts down. I assume the M11 batteries work the same way.

This is the same idea as printer manufacturers putting chips in their ink cartridges and forcing you to buy OEM ink. Imagine the outrage if Leica forced you to use Leica-branded $300 SD cards in their digital cameras, or only Leica-branded film in your M7.

Am I the only person who likes the M10’s wifi abilities?  Coming from an M9 its a dream— sure it could be faster but it works great.  

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14 hours ago, adan said:

I really have to wonder about mindsets which propose that a camera that must be "propped up" with a smartphone, apps, and wifi/Bluetooth is somehow the alpha and omega of simplicity and hassle-free operation. ;)

Some people drink the "Silicon Valley Kool-Aid" - and some appear to drown in it. ;)

And - BTW - the Leica M framelines as such are still optical and mechanical (slits cut in sheet metal) - they are just backlit by an LED instead of a window.

Not sure who's mindset you're referring to... but the M10 design was already sufficiently complicated by Leica such that it required an LCD and menu system to deal with it. So maybe you're asking why Wetzlar would actually design a modern camera?

My point was that the M10-D--intended to recreate the film-M user experience--basically failed (IMO) because it traded a functional LCD menu system for an abysmal mobile app. Sure, some folks get along with an M10-D in spite of not being able to tell how much space is left on the SD card (much less format one), or see how much juice is left in the battery, but it remains a niche product for nostalgic customers. For the record, I think the faux-winder is brilliant and should be standard on every digital M.

Most of the M10-D facepalm came from using Wi-Fi as the communications which requires excessive fiddling with your phone and a long time for the two devices to recognize each other. Simply changing the communcations to Bluetooth would make a no-screen camera far more usable. As a supporting example, I'll offer the Profoto Connect flash trigger which communicates over BLE to a mobile app and provides a simple API to configuring your Profoto lights. It takes only a second or two for the phone to notice that the trigger is turned on.

The M11 platform includes Bluetooth, so they're in a much better position to make a -D that actually works well.

Please excuse my imprecise description of the framelines. On my M8, the framelines are "always" there. I can walk around with the camera turned off and still see them. With my M10s, I have to make sure the camera is powered up first. Sure, it's only a few seconds, but it's much slower than raising the camera to one's eye. I've developed the paranoid habit of half-pressing the shutter button every once in a while to keep the camera alive just in case. The only user advantage I can see for LED lit framelines is that they'll continue to work in total darkness. I suspect the optical illumination window went away as part of a cost-saving or space-saving design goal. If Leica could simply make the framelines come on instantly without waiting for the rest of the system to power up, my peeve would vanish.

I suspect, actually, that the delay in frameline illumination is tied in part to the battery DRM that Leica has built into the M10 platform. The camera firmware waits for whatever electronics are buried in the batteries to announce themselves via coded messages. It's not about waiting for power, which is always present. It seems to be about verifying who manufactured the battery.

If you want to discuss "Silicon Valley Kool-Aid", please talk to the asshat product manager who put truly needless complexity in a battery for the sake of protecting margins on a consumable accessory.

</rant>

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10 hours ago, shanefking said:

Am I the only person who likes the M10’s wifi abilities?  Coming from an M9 its a dream— sure it could be faster but it works great.  

Kind of I think. It works definitely better now than the Fotos 1.0. But it depends on the weather so to speak how much trials you need to get in and it costs a lot of batterylife, like GPS does btw. And the M10 isn't very strong in that department in the first place, so I save my battery for when I need live view with an R lens.

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14 hours ago, mediumformula said:

My personal criteria for an M camera:

1. Optical Viewfinder

2. M Mount Lenses

3. Compact Size similar to the original M3

4. Full Frame Film/Sensor 

5. Mechanical Shutter

So far the only M's that violate those criteria are the M5 due to its size and the M8 due to its sensor size.  M240 flirted with violating the 3rd criteria.  The M11 is flirting with violating the 5th criteria but technically still qualifies.   I'm not stating that the M8 or M5 are bad cameras, but they are not classic M's in my mind.  

The M10 comes closest and is probably what you need.  Plus if one doesn’t use the UVF, LCD and WiFi, the battery life is ample. 

Edited by rramesh
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As an M10-D user I don’t feel the need to change any settings.  
 

Maybe I’m doing it wrong ! 
 

I use it more or less as you would use a film camera and given the design I’ve always thought that was the point. 
 

Nice to have the option of changing settings when rarely needed and I don’t find the wifi - Fotos a headache. It’s not always amazing as it sometimes hangs but it’s rare, and in reference to the first line of my post that doesn’t bother me in the slightest.  

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17 hours ago, Sailronin said:

Am thinking about an M9M if I could pick one up with a new sensor.

Coming from an SL2 you'll be bummed by the operational ergonomics of the M9M (screen, buffer, body thickness, shutter sound etc). It's what ultimately made me sell mine a couple of years ago (with a new sensor at great cost to me) and recently purchased a 'used' brand new M10M (user bought it, never actually opened the box, and I got it for $7k). Jury is out on image quality, though I think at lower iso's the M9M might be better SOOC, but the M10M files are much more malleable, and of course the iso goes much higher (and lower). I may not even use mine that much, but the pair of M10-R black paint and M10M are end game for me. 

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vor 21 Stunden schrieb mediumformula:

My personal criteria for an M camera:

1. Optical Viewfinder

2. M Mount Lenses

3. Compact Size similar to the original M3

4. Full Frame Film/Sensor 

5. Mechanical Shutter

I agree in general, but don't have a problem with an elctronic shutter above 1/4.000s

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