SrMi Posted February 5, 2022 Share #101 Posted February 5, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) 15 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said: Sorry to keep repeating the distinctions, but with both the M11 and the M10 (with the EVF), you get centre-weighted, spot and multi-field metering off the sensor. With the M10 and all previous M cameras back to to the M6 (except the M-A), you also get the centre-weighted metering off the shutter curtain. Now, the latter might not be as accurate as spot and centre weighted off the sensor, but it is consistent and has been for decades. I know what’s being measured. With multi-field, however, I don’t have that control. Perhaps it’s just me being stuck in the mud, but it’s just another choice like AWB, Auto-Iso, Snapshot mode (remember that), the P and A settings and every other choice the camera makes for me that I would rather avoid. So, for me, no the multi-field meter option is not a better choice. Tried it on my other cameras, and dumped it. Now, much like video (or even the LCD) and other features, I could set up an M11 with one resolution, no cropping, no electronic shutter and just centre weighted metering, sunny day white balance, one ISO etc … I would then be looking at my M10-D and asking myself what I’d gained? No baseplate, better battery, better dynamic range, USB-C, reduced internal flare (not a problem I’ve noticed so far) … Not enough. Worse, they’ve just included a lot of stuff I don’t want and don’t like. Am I bashing the camera or other people’s choices? No, expressing my own opinion. Why? Maybe Leica will listen? Have I tried it? No. I have three M cameras already, so I know what one’s like in the hand. I don’t think there will be any in the country for me to try, and why would I bother. I’m very happy with what I have. I don’t need to handle a camera with an LCD and lots of features I don’t want or neeed to say “not for me”. If they brought out an M11-D? Well, that would depend (see the other thread) - one resolution, no cropping, return to centre weighted metering off the shutter - I might be interested. Every move away from just the basics detrracts from the M paradigm for me. I have an SL and I have a TL2, and I really like them. But my M cameras I like to be completely stripped back to the minimum I need to capture the best DNG files I can with those basics and the best lenses. I do not think it is relevant whether metering is off the sensor or shutter curtain. More relevant is what metering modes are available in RF mode, the preferred shooting mode on an M camera. With M11, you have all three modes available. With previous models, you have only center-weighted mode available. For some, the center-weighted mode is enough. It is available on all digital M cameras. M11 does not force one to switch to different metering. Why would it matter whether center-weighted metering is done off the sensor or shutter curtain? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 5, 2022 Posted February 5, 2022 Hi SrMi, Take a look here Is the M10 the last “Real” Leica ?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
IkarusJohn Posted February 5, 2022 Share #102 Posted February 5, 2022 1 minute ago, SrMi said: I do not think it is relevant whether metering is off the sensor or shutter curtain. More relevant is what metering modes are available in RF mode, the preferred shooting mode on an M camera. With M11, you have all three modes available. With previous models, you have only center-weighted mode available. For some, the center-weighted mode is enough. It is available on all digital M cameras. M11 does not force one to switch to different metering. Why would it matter whether center-weighted metering is done off the sensor or shutter curtain? That’s a good way of considering the distinction between the cameras - I assume you can set centre-weighted metering as a default when using the OVF, and once set, never have to dive into menus or settings again? If that is the case then the only difference is that the shutter opens when you turn the camera on. Not my preference, but something I could easily live with - the sound would annoy me (I like the shutter sound of the M10-D), but I would get used to it, I’m sure. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted February 5, 2022 Share #103 Posted February 5, 2022 Conversely, as noted, eliminating the meter from the chamber has a beneficial effect regarding flare. Jeff 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted February 5, 2022 Share #104 Posted February 5, 2022 Just now, Jeff S said: Conversely, as noted, eliminating the meter from the chamber has a beneficial effect regarding flare. Jeff As noted previously, not a problem I’ve encountered, but good to know. Again. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted February 5, 2022 Share #105 Posted February 5, 2022 9 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said: If that is the case then the only difference is that the shutter opens when you turn the camera on. Again, because it’s not the only difference. And SrMi’s explanation of the metering choices in RF mode has been repeated often. Sometimes repetition helps… apparently. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted February 5, 2022 Share #106 Posted February 5, 2022 Just now, Jeff S said: Again, because it’s not the only difference. And SrMi’s explanation of the metering choices in RF mode has been repeated often. Sometimes repetition helps… apparently. Jeff Actually, no Jeff. Repetition doesn’t seem to be working. For me, flare inside the camera has never been a problem. I haven’t read the pages and pages of complaints about it here … oh, hang on … Not to get hung up on details in an exchange with Srdjan, but to date the dogma has been multi-field metering is better. Phrasing the difference as he has reduced the practical difference to shutter open or closed. Still not clear if multi-field metering has to be the default - no mention so far. I think my post and many others acknowledged the reduced flare issue, and I mentioned it wasn’t an issue for me. Sorry I didn’t make this clear for you. The real issue for me is that the meter reading off the shutter is gone for good. I think that is a shame, as it closes the door on a feature of the M cameras I liked. You don’t agree - that I can live with. Leica apparently doesn’t agree either - that I will have to live with, if I want another digital M (not a given). Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted February 5, 2022 Share #107 Posted February 5, 2022 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) 26 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said: You don’t agree - that I can live with. No, I said nothing here about my preferences. But I did state them elsewhere. I have no interest in the M11, perfectly satisfied with metering, resolution, battery life and charging, etc from my current M cameras. And I don’t have any flaring issues with my M10 variants. It’s not all about me … just offering some objective differences noted by various reviewers and respected members here. Jeff Edited February 5, 2022 by Jeff S Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M11 for me Posted February 5, 2022 Share #108 Posted February 5, 2022 (edited) vor 50 Minuten schrieb IkarusJohn: That’s a good way of considering the distinction between the cameras - I assume you can set centre-weighted metering as a default when using the OVF, and once set, never have to dive into menus or settings again? If that is the case then the only difference is that the shutter opens when you turn the camera on. Not my preference, but something I could easily live with - the sound would annoy me (I like the shutter sound of the M10-D), but I would get used to it, I’m sure. I have the M11 now for about 2 weeks. This camera by its additional functionality moved far away from the M10. When working with the M11 I have the strong feeling that I get near an EVF camera even though it has the OVF as main view finder. The next thing I am going to do is buing the new visoflex as I find myself much more often using the LCD than I did with with the M10. Then that discussion about center weighted is of no much use. With the new M11 you can still set it to that center weighted but the standard will clearly be the multi-field metering (as it is with other big players Sony and Canon). It works perfectly even straight into the sun and at the same time in low light. And it works perfectly well and tends to set the histogram straight into the middle which is great for a user of the M11. You never had this experience with the M10. The other discussion about the lag I can understand even less. We all agree that M shooting is slow shooting. Who bothers about milliseconds? This is rather useless discussion. For speed I have the R5 and as I understand most M-friends here use another system besides the M. Now you might say that these functions are not the M anymore as we liked it in the past. But I like to follow the road with the M. Edited February 5, 2022 by M10 for me 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted February 5, 2022 Share #109 Posted February 5, 2022 25 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said: Actually, no Jeff. Repetition doesn’t seem to be working. For me, flare inside the camera has never been a problem. I haven’t read the pages and pages of complaints about it here … oh, hang on … Not to get hung up on details in an exchange with Srdjan, but to date the dogma has been multi-field metering is better. Phrasing the difference as he has reduced the practical difference to shutter open or closed. Still not clear if multi-field metering has to be the default - no mention so far. I think my post and many others acknowledged the reduced flare issue, and I mentioned it wasn’t an issue for me. Sorry I didn’t make this clear for you. The real issue for me is that the meter reading off the shutter is gone for good. I think that is a shame, as it closes the door on a feature of the M cameras I liked. You don’t agree - that I can live with. Leica apparently doesn’t agree either - that I will have to live with, if I want another digital M (not a given). The repetition references the metering discussion, not the flare discussion. I have never claimed that multi-field metering is better. Instead, I have argued that having a choice is better. Multi-field metering does not have to be the default, neither in LV with M10 nor in RF and LV in M11. So which metering feature do you lose with the new off-sensor metering? P.S.: I have not seen a reduction in flare in practice (Leica claims it is reduced), but it is good that the flare should be reduced in theory. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spydrxx Posted February 5, 2022 Share #110 Posted February 5, 2022 Tongue in cheek. IMHO the last "real Leica" was the last film based non-battery using model. Everything since is merely a modern "improved" Leica. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted February 5, 2022 Share #111 Posted February 5, 2022 Leica Standard (Model E) was the last real Leica. Once Leica added the rangefinder to the Leica II, it was no longer the same. Like EVFs, the rangefinder should be an external accessory and not integrated into the camera! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted February 5, 2022 Share #112 Posted February 5, 2022 31 minutes ago, SrMi said: Multi-field metering does not have to be the default, neither in LV with M10 nor in RF and LV in M11. So which metering feature do you lose with the new off-sensor metering? Excuse the selective quote, but that wasn’t my question. Can you set the M11 to have centre-weighted metering as the default when using the OVF? ie, turn the camera on and have metering through the optical rangefinder centre-weighted? Or do you have to turn it on, go into the menu and set the metering - everything I’ve read so far suggests that multi-field is the default. Quote When working with the M11 I have the strong feeling that I get near an EVF camera even though it has the OVF as main view finder. The next thing I am going to do is buing the new visoflex as I find myself much more often using the LCD than I did with with the M10. Then that discussion about center weighted is of no much use. With the new M11 you can still set it to that center weighted but the standard will clearly be the multi-field metering (as it is with other big players Sony and Canon). It works perfectly even straight into the sun and at the same time in low light. And it works perfectly well and tends to set the histogram straight into the middle which is great for a user of the M11. You never had this experience with the M10. I agree that this camera feels one very short step from an MEVF. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted February 5, 2022 Share #113 Posted February 5, 2022 9 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said: Excuse the selective quote, but that wasn’t my question. Can you set the M11 to have centre-weighted metering as the default when using the OVF? ie, turn the camera on and have metering through the optical rangefinder centre-weighted? Yes! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted February 5, 2022 Share #114 Posted February 5, 2022 The menu is similar to the SL2… metering settings for either spot, center weighted or multi-field. Set and forget…or adjust as desired. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxtwo Posted February 5, 2022 Share #115 Posted February 5, 2022 Seems to me that a lot of folks are pining for an M sized EVF camera without a rangefinder mechanism. Sort of a “QM-3” with interchangeable lenses sort of affair. One has to wonder if that configuration would be sustainable when compared to a mass marketed Canon or Nikon. Would the market accept a manual focused EVF camera? Given my frustrating experience with focus peaking, I’m not so sure. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixeleater Posted February 5, 2022 Share #116 Posted February 5, 2022 17 minutes ago, Foxtwo said: frustrating experience with focus peaking, Could be the result of peaking too high somewhere over the earth? 😀 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMyers Posted February 6, 2022 Share #117 Posted February 6, 2022 Perhaps Leica should have continued to sell one of the M10 models, in addition the the M11 ? The base M10, with 24 megapixels seems to be considered to be a basic "real" Leica. The new M11 is similar, but enhanced. A new M12 EV could eventually capture the attention of many new potential Leica owners, but they would probably insist on an electronically coupled lens. Of course Leica would need to also produce a film version, perhaps what they have right now. For me, I see the M10 as being a direct evolution from the early Leica cameras. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted February 6, 2022 Share #118 Posted February 6, 2022 18 minutes ago, MikeMyers said: Perhaps Leica should have continued to sell one of the M10 models, in addition the the M11 ? They do, for now… M10-R and M10 Monochrom. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
didier Posted February 6, 2022 Share #119 Posted February 6, 2022 13 hours ago, IkarusJohn said: Every move away from just the basics detrracts from the M paradigm for me. I have an SL and I have a TL2, and I really like them. But my M cameras I like to be completely stripped back to the minimum I need to capture the best DNG files I can with those basics and the best lenses. +1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.f Posted February 6, 2022 Share #120 Posted February 6, 2022 2 minutes ago, didier said: +1 +2 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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