M11 Monochrom is coming ?

[jonoslack]

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2 minutes ago, Jon Warwick said:

It’s a fantastic image. Thanks for posting including the DNG. Admittedly I’m in the camp where I think the M10M (or potential 60mp M11M) would be even better to more accurately render the detail in a 60” wide print, but I liken the higher megapixel argument to film days when some of us actively chose 35mm vs 120 vs 5x4 vs 10x8, going up in resolution to increase the fidelity and “sharpness” of the image. Still, I think large format technique of camera on a tripod (and to Stuart’s point the best APO lenses) are pretty key to seeing obvious improvement as full frame marches from 40mp to 60mp.

Hi John

I'm not advocating keeping to lower megapixel, I like every bit I can get, just keeping a reality check.

As for the large format technique of using a tripod . . . . . I don't think I agree. If you can shoot at 1600 ISO without losing much in quality (which you can with the M11) then you can easily keep the shutter speed to levels were camera shake is not such an issue - indeed, I don't shoot so much in low light,  and this is the main advantage of better and better high ISO.

I quite agree with @Stuart Richardson remarks about the APO Summicron SL lenses - they're magical, and a perfect balance of size and performance.

All the best

Jono

[Stuart Richardson]

I am also a more is more kind of person when it comes to resolution, but even I have to admit that there are limits to the practicality for that. I think Jon's point about 60" wide prints is true, but even among those of use who make big prints, 60" is not often required. At least unless that truly is your signature. In my experience, most photographers top out at about 30x40 inches for "regular" prints and 40x60 for "huge" prints. Part of that is practical...the most commonly available fine art printers are 44 inches wide. The 60 inch models are harder to find and generally a bit behind in quality (not much, just a generation of printers). What convinced me to stick with the SL2 was that I just thought it looked better, and I was already happy with 100x150cm from the 37mp S2 and S006, so 47mp with sharper lenses in the SL2 is frankly enough for me. On the off chance that I want more quality I can use multishot. In comparison to film, 4x5 may extract a bit more detail...a bit. But it also comes with grain and softness...again, a bit. I think in large prints they are functionally equivalent in most cases. The differences are more about tonality and character of the detail, as well as the highlight curve (at least for negative film).

What does all this mean for the M11 Monochrome? It likely means that you have a compact 35mm camera that can provide large format quality images while handheld, most likely up to ISO 50000 or so. That is pretty extraordinary. Will it make better pictures than a view camera? That is the kicker...regardless of resolution there is something about the ceremony and way that people react to large format cameras that really helps with good pictures. Same with the ability to control the frame with rise, fall and tilt and shift. Or bellows limited close focus. But when it comes to high quality on the move, the M11M is going to be an extraordinary tool. Not to be a broken record, but it is a shame about the price. When the M3 came out in 1954 and was 250 dollars, that would be 2700 today adjusted for inflation. The digital m's are soaring out of reach of a lot of photographers who could otherwise stretch to afford them and make great images. I don't think we will look back on this era and see all that many great photographers using Leicas. At least not compared to previous generations.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Stuart Richardson

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[Chaemono]

Getting mine tomorrow. I’ll try to make time to find out what the “noise” is all about. 😁

[algrove]

The M11 metering system is the best I have experienced in an M. So the M11M should do better versus the M10M on every level except for price. Can't recall what I paid for an M10M, but it must have been close to US$8k.

[johnbuckley]

On 4/11/2023 at 10:34 AM, charlesphoto99 said:

Pssst: I’ll let you in on a secret, you guys may not want to trade those M10M’s for M11M’s quite yet because the M12M is going to be soooo much better, lol. But then that M14M….

 

If you think of the purchase of any new Leica as a future trade-in at roughly 40% of the price of its new variant it is, while still super expensive, not insane. You have to take the long view… and hope that Leica does not — as they did in late 2019/early 2020 - upgrade the SL line and the Monochrom within a 60-day period 🙂

[pgh]

5 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I am also a more is more kind of person when it comes to resolution, but even I have to admit that there are limits to the practicality for that. I think Jon's point about 60" wide prints is true, but even among those of use who make big prints, 60" is not often required. At least unless that truly is your signature. In my experience, most photographers top out at about 30x40 inches for "regular" prints and 40x60 for "huge" prints. Part of that is practical...the most commonly available fine art printers are 44 inches wide. The 60 inch models are harder to find and generally a bit behind in quality (not much, just a generation of printers). What convinced me to stick with the SL2 was that I just thought it looked better, and I was already happy with 100x150cm from the 37mp S2 and S006, so 47mp with sharper lenses in the SL2 is frankly enough for me. On the off chance that I want more quality I can use multishot. In comparison to film, 4x5 may extract a bit more detail...a bit. But it also comes with grain and softness...again, a bit. I think in large prints they are functionally equivalent in most cases. The differences are more about tonality and character of the detail, as well as the highlight curve (at least for negative film).

What does all this mean for the M11 Monochrome? It likely means that you have a compact 35mm camera that can provide large format quality images while handheld, most likely up to ISO 50000 or so. That is pretty extraordinary. Will it make better pictures than a view camera? That is the kicker...regardless of resolution there is something about the ceremony and way that people react to large format cameras that really helps with good pictures. Same with the ability to control the frame with rise, fall and tilt and shift. Or bellows limited close focus. But when it comes to high quality on the move, the M11M is going to be an extraordinary tool. Not to be a broken record, but it is a shame about the price. When the M3 came out in 1954 and was 250 dollars, that would be 2700 today adjusted for inflation. The digital m's are soaring out of reach of a lot of photographers who could otherwise stretch to afford them and make great images. I don't think we will look back on this era and see all that many great photographers using Leicas. At least not compared to previous generations.

I suppose I have the added benefit of just not loving the feel of the M11 compared to my M10 - and not finding any of the improvements to address any issues I felt like I was having (they're great, but they fix "problems" that weren't ones for me) and developing an affinity for the M10 bodies, appreciating the shared batteries, and using them long enough to where my M10M has little learning curve. 

I agree with your take about photographers and printing. The few that I know of that make absolutely huge prints as the sort of signature are going to be using large format/medium format digital/tripod the whole thing. I'll sometimes print quite large (largest is 90" or 228 cm) but these pieces are done in panels. The resolution isn't the issue in these pieces, it's the installation! 

If you need to put the M11 on a tripod to make it sing that defeats the point of the form factor. I agree also about the SL2 - while I prefer using the Ms it's the reason I haven't picked up an M10R. I love the base ISO files and the flexibility of that camera. 

I have to agree with your final point as well - you could say I am in the thick of the contemporary photo world in the U.S. (I've been making pictures for about 20 years, am middle aged, many friends and colleagues are showing in galleries, large cultural institutions and/or publications showing work etc etc) so no matter what one thinks of the quality of what qualifies as a successful contemporary photographer I know many of them, and precious few using Leicas - I can think of only one who buys relatively new ones, and a few who used beater film bodies for fun but never their real work. It's just generally out of reach. Only reason I use them is I bought in early with glass, years ago when I had no obligations, was arguably bad with spending priorities, I generally buy used, and I have had some good fortune most even successful photographers do not have. I'm sure M11 is great but that price...phew. But - it will sell quite well I am sure. 

Only thing - 50k ISO and large format quality? I'm skeptical, but if so that will be a wow for sure. I initially responded to the idea that far larger prints will be possible with the M11M than the M10M. I grant that marginally larger prints will be possible, but I guess I'll wait to see. 40 to 60 just isn't a great jump in print quality from what I've seen, and based on M11 files compared to M10R I expect a bit marginal noise improvement, nothing revolutionary. Either way, I'm quite happy with low light in my M10M - don't feel like I've bumped up against the limits for my work. 

[Stuart Richardson]

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18 minutes ago, pgh said:

Only thing - 50k ISO and large format quality? I'm skeptical, but if so that will be a wow for sure. I initially responded to the idea that far larger prints will be possible with the M11M than the M10M. I grant that marginally larger prints will be possible, but I guess I'll wait to see. 40 to 60 just isn't a great jump in print quality from what I've seen, and based on M11 files compared to M10R I expect a bit marginal noise improvement, nothing revolutionary. Either way, I'm quite happy with low light in my M10M - don't feel like I've bumped up against the limits for my work. 

Well, agreed. We'll see. I was just going on the fact that ISO25000 images seem fairly usable in the M10M, at least from what I have seen, and it should be a bit better on the M11M. Add to that films with a bit more grain like HP5 or Foma etc. It is unlikely to be comparable to Tmax 100 or Delta 100 etc. In my limited experience with the M10M, ISO 6400 had the salt and pepper grain you might expect from a low speed film in Rodinal, only at a much higher resolution. But none of these things are 1 to 1! I am also in the contemporary art scene and did my MFA in the US. I was the only one using Leica digital. Lots of people using film, but most were using large format or the Mamiya 7II. For digital most were using Fuji or Sony. No great surprise I guess.

[Alistairm]

Can barely wait… love the M11 dearly, but shoot my M10M more. Leaving aside any IQ improvements, being able to travel with matching batteries for my colour and mono bodies and never again needing to carry a separate charger 🔌 will be a minor, but very welcome convenience. And Visoflex 2 at full res on both bodies will be nice too.  
 

So… currently enjoying that “night before Christmas” vibe waiting for the M11M to drop.

[pgh]

1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

 I am also in the contemporary art scene and did my MFA in the US.

Sidebar - but I just checked your b/g, and I don't know how you got through your program without shooting a mamiya7! I kid, but sort of. 

Yeah, I haven't pushed my M10M yet, I'm actually going to be trying some 3200 and 6400 files at 20x30 soon and curious to see how it does. I only have a 17" wide in house the rest takes a minute through my friend. 

[Chaemono]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb jonoslack:

[…]
If you can shoot at 1600 ISO without losing much in quality (which you can with the M11) then you can easily keep the shutter speed to levels were camera shake is not such an issue
[…] 

That’s why I decided not to get an M11. But I’m starting to think now, isn’t the real question if ISO 1600 on the M11 is better than ISO 400 on the M10 for color fidelity and pushed shadows detail assuming one uses an AI application like DXO PureRAW or Topaz DeNoise?  I’d love to see those comparisons. The difference will also likely depend on the scene. At some point, I may borrow an M11 to find out.

[Chaemono]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb Alistairm:

Can barely wait… love the M11 dearly, but shoot my M10M more. Leaving aside any IQ improvements, being able to travel with matching batteries for my colour and mono bodies and never again needing to carry a separate charger 🔌 will be a minor, but very welcome convenience. And Visoflex 2 at full res on both bodies will be nice too.  
 

So… currently enjoying that “night before Christmas” vibe waiting for the M11M to drop.

Beware of the sticker shock. In € it’s about 9.5K

[Olaf_ZG]

Great discussion on the last pages, just hope that the m11m is mature enough to skip the child diseases from the m11.

 I also hope that many of the new technology will go into the sl3, as this is what I am waiting for.

Next to my m10m ofcourse…

[Stuart Richardson]

2 hours ago, pgh said:

Sidebar - but I just checked your b/g, and I don't know how you got through your program without shooting a mamiya7! I kid, but sort of. 

 

Who said I did? Lol. Got my Mamiya 7II in 2002 and have been using it ever since...

[algrove]

Wished I lived somewhere close to a Leica Store. What fun is Christmas if there is no Santa coming nearby.

[algrove]

Wonder if the M11 grip is universal for use on the M11M?

[Alistairm]

2 hours ago, Chaemono said:

Beware of the sticker shock. In € it’s about 9.5K

Then you do the maths on travelling with an M11, M11M, Visoflex, 24 Lux, 35/50/135 APO and 75 Nocti and what the sunk cost would be if the camera bag went missing!

Edited April 12, 2023 by Alistairm

[LocalHero1953]

2 hours ago, Olaf_ZG said:

 I also hope that many of the new technology will go into the sl3, as this is what I am waiting for.

 

+1 !

[Chaemono]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb Alistairm:

Then you do the maths on travelling with an M11, M11M, Visoflex, 24 Lux, 35/50/135 APO and 75 Nocti and what the sunk cost would be if the camera bag went missing!

You’re obviously not one of them posters in the “Cost of living crisis” thread. 

[humerc]

FYI: The iOS Fotos App has just been updated to support the M11 Monochrom 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[MediaFotografie]

vor einer Stunde schrieb humerc:

FYI: The iOS Fotos App has just been updated to support the M11 Monochrom 

yes:

 

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