Jono Slack Review: Leica M11 Monochrome

[MarkP]

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1 minute ago, Steve Ash said:

Another way to respond is to let several body releases pass-by. That is also much more sustainable.

Agreed, one reason why I wrote: I have said that before’. But the prices are still extortionate 

[wattsy]

10 hours ago, jonoslack said:

I understand what you're saying, but I don't agree. If you are a self employed long distance lorry driver, then the cost of a lorry dwarfs the price of Leica cameras. If you're good at your job then the cost of these cameras really isn't the killer factor. 

It's an interesting comparison Jono – and you might also make the comparison with a farmer buying a modern tractor (though I think both the haulier and farmer are often more likely to lease the equipment) – but I think you are mistaken if you think there are many photographers "good at their job" who will be lining up to buy this new camera. Sure, there will be some, a tiny number of whom might even be "proper" professional photographers (by that I mean those who've gone through the traditional route of college, assistant, etc.) but they will be more likely those keen photographers (often self-styled pro) who are coming from other careers or have a rentier type income. (Of course, it makes no odds to Leica who they sell the camera to but that isn't the point being discussed.)

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[250swb]

13 hours ago, jonoslack said:

I understand what you're saying, but I don't agree. If you are a self employed long distance lorry driver, then the cost of a lorry dwarfs the price of Leica cameras. If you're good at your job then the cost of these cameras really isn't the killer factor. 

If the analogy contains a hint of reality it's that an average lorry driver is probably a better driver than the average Porsche owner. 

Go back to the first Monochrom, we all know the out-of-camera files were flat and boring, but they were raved over when posted on the forum by people who wanted an instant fix of B&W magic. While the out-of-camera images have improved immensely over the years the M11M will be sold to a similar group as with all the other Monochroms in-between. And it may offend people but the photographs made from any of the Monochroms are in the main boring and poorly executed because they haven't been bought by people good at the job (or hobby) of photography. Instead the ability of the camera defines the upper level of their skill and buying a luxury camera is the only way they know to get a digital B&W image.

[Jan1985]

vor 36 Minuten schrieb 250swb:

If the analogy contains a hint of reality it's that an average lorry driver is probably a better driver than the average Porsche owner. 

Go back to the first Monochrom, we all know the out-of-camera files were flat and boring, but they were raved over when posted on the forum by people who wanted an instant fix of B&W magic. While the out-of-camera images have improved immensely over the years the M11M will be sold to a similar group as with all the other Monochroms in-between. And it may offend people but the photographs made from any of the Monochroms are in the main boring and poorly executed because they haven't been bought by people good at the job (or hobby) of photography. Instead the ability of the camera defines the upper level of their skill and buying a luxury camera is the only way they know to get a digital B&W image.

That's what I am thinking, too. We always see a lot of "test shots" coming up with these new cameras but rarely anyone is able to produce real stunning photographs. that's why nowadays most iconic pictures are made with a Canon, Sony or Nikon just for sake of pricing and usability.

[algrove]

Thanks as always Jono.

Could you please briefly address which software you use to adjust your dng's and what you tend to do in that software. What do you find an image generally always needs and does not need generally. Do you do global adjustments or local adjustments or both?

I know each image is unto itself, but wanted to hear from you what you are doing to a dng. Thanks.

Lou

[jonoslack]

3 hours ago, 250swb said:

Go back to the first Monochrom, we all know the out-of-camera files were flat and boring, but they were raved over when posted on the forum by people who wanted an instant fix of B&W magic. While the out-of-camera images have improved immensely over the years the M11M 

Hi There

Do you think the out of camera files have really improved - I'd have said that the 'flatness' is largely a function of the huge dynamic range, and that is even bigger with the modern monochrom cameras. Certainly, if I'd posted the original DNG files of these images they would have induced a big yawn!

2 hours ago, algrove said:

Thanks as always Jono.

Could you please briefly address which software you use to adjust your dng's and what you tend to do in that software. What do you find an image generally always needs and does not need generally. Do you do global adjustments or local adjustments or both?

I know each image is unto itself, but wanted to hear from you what you are doing to a dng. Thanks.

Lou

Hi there Lou

I use Lightroom Classic for everything here - I used to use Silver Efex Pro and I've dabbled with Topaz AI, but I've found that the new subject / sky mask selection in LR is so good. So, mainly that's what I've been doing - selecting areas and boosting exposure / contrast both locally and globally. A cheap trick I like is to highlight the subject, get the exposure/contrast just as I want it, then increase the exposure by another stop . . . . then drop the global exposure by a stop. The only downsides is that you do, sometimes produce artifacts.

Still, as with all the Monochroms the trick is never to overexpose

For example

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[250swb]

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2 hours ago, jonoslack said:

Hi There

Do you think the out of camera files have really improved - I'd have said that the 'flatness' is largely a function of the huge dynamic range, and that is even bigger with the modern monochrom cameras. Certainly, if I'd posted the original DNG files of these images they would have induced a big yawn!

Hi there Lou

I use Lightroom Classic for everything here - I used to use Silver Efex Pro and I've dabbled with Topaz AI, but I've found that the new subject / sky mask selection in LR is so good. So, mainly that's what I've been doing - selecting areas and boosting exposure / contrast both locally and globally. A cheap trick I like is to highlight the subject, get the exposure/contrast just as I want it, then increase the exposure by another stop . . . . then drop the global exposure by a stop. The only downsides is that you do, sometimes produce artifacts.

Still, as with all the Monochroms the trick is never to overexpose

For example

Before:

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

After

Come on Jono, have a look at the histogram for the second image, if the trick is to never overexpose the next trick is to never blow the highlights in post.

[Kim Dahl]

2 hours ago, jonoslack said:

Hi There

Do you think the out of camera files have really improved - I'd have said that the 'flatness' is largely a function of the huge dynamic range, and that is even bigger with the modern monochrom cameras. Certainly, if I'd posted the original DNG files of these images they would have induced a big yawn!

Hi there Lou

I use Lightroom Classic for everything here - I used to use Silver Efex Pro and I've dabbled with Topaz AI, but I've found that the new subject / sky mask selection in LR is so good. So, mainly that's what I've been doing - selecting areas and boosting exposure / contrast both locally and globally. A cheap trick I like is to highlight the subject, get the exposure/contrast just as I want it, then increase the exposure by another stop . . . . then drop the global exposure by a stop. The only downsides is that you do, sometimes produce artifacts.

Still, as with all the Monochroms the trick is never to overexpose

For example

Before:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

After

Hi Jono,

A good tip you give there.  I work as a press photographer all my life. And now 57.
Lightroom's “new” mask.  Where you can select a person or sky or highlight yourself with a brush.  If you emphasize it in pictures "what should tell the story" (e.g. the person) and brighten the area with Max 1 aperture, and dims the background (otherwise it will be too much ;-/ ) Then it works like in the "old days" with fill flash.  
A "cheap" trick but it works.  Also in color !!  
Considering going "all in" with the Leica M. But the final push is needed.  The things I photograph today I don't really need much more than a 24-90 mm No zoom ,-)

Thanks Jono for a good review.

vh Kim. 

[erudolph]

17 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

 …a simple quiet snick…

That’s the sound!  🙂

[jonoslack]

35 minutes ago, 250swb said:

Come on Jono, have a look at the histogram for the second image, if the trick is to never overexpose the next trick is to never blow the highlights in post.

Haha - good point, but CHOOSING to blow highlights in post isn't quite the same thing as doing it accidentally!

 

[250swb]

1 hour ago, jonoslack said:

Haha - good point, but CHOOSING to blow highlights in post isn't quite the same thing as doing it accidentally!

 

I agree, I like to make a photo of what I saw in real life, even if the highlights made me squint. But not many people will deviate from what the M11M says is ‘true’ because they paid a lot of money to avoid having their own opinion about what they saw.

Edited April 15, 2023 by 250swb

[algrove]

Thanks Jono. Hopefully I'll get to use mine and try your approach after the UPS drivers play with it this weekend even though Saturday delivery was paid for and it arrived in my city well before noon today. Monday is for me now.

 

Just remembered another question for you. Which lens(es) would you say performed the best on the M11M in terms of sharpness forgetting each lenses character? APO 35 and APO 50? Or 35 1.4 CF and 50 1.4 CF?

Edited April 15, 2023 by algrove

[jonoslack]

19 minutes ago, algrove said:

Thanks Jono. Hopefully I'll get to use mine and try your approach after the UPS drivers play with it this weekend even though Saturday delivery was paid for and it arrived in my city well before noon today. Monday is for me now.

 

Just remembered another question for you. Which lens(es) would you say performed the best on the M11M in terms of sharpness forgetting each lenses character? APO 35 and APO 50? Or 35 1.4 CF and 50 1.4 CF?

Hi Lou

Well, I prefer the APOs every time - sorry about your UPS truck!

[jonoslack]

33 minutes ago, 250swb said:

I agree, I like to make a photo of what I saw in real life, even if the highlights made me squint. But not many people will deviate from what the M11M says is ‘true’ because they paid a lot of money to avoid having their own opinion about what they saw.

I do hope you're wrong about that - I was hoping that making it very clear that I do post processing would make people think. . . . . maybe I should also include the unmodified DNG files!

[verwackelt]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb jonoslack:

Do you think the out of camera files have really improved - I'd have said that the 'flatness' is largely a function of the huge dynamic range, and that is even bigger with the modern monochrom cameras. Certainly, if I'd posted the original DNG files of these images they would have induced a big yawn!

That may be the reason for muddy RAW conversion without editing of earlier models,
but at least the profiles in the camera should be such that the JPGs that come out of the camera without post-processing are nice to look at.
That wasn't the case with the first monochrome. What do the proper exposed JPGs from the new camera look like?
Not everyone wants to shoot RAWs and mess around in LR or C1. For all the money, the camera should offer some good standard profiles for direct JPG output...
Forgotten to add: Why then are colour images from cameras that have a high dynamic range and are only opened in the raw converter and output as tiff or JPG not so flat? I guess it's all a matter of the stored profiles and not the hardware.

Edited April 15, 2023 by verwackelt

[IkarusJohn]

It was the malleability of the raw files out of the original Monochrom that got me hooked.  I still love using that camera above anything else.  Is the quality of the images I take sufficient to justify the expense?  My silver chrome Monochrom is still the most expensive M camera I have bought (save perhaps the long gone M60, but that had a lens included).  I don’t think the quality of the images is relevant really - a crap photo taken with an M11M is no better or worse than a crap taken with an A7 or X1D II.

For myself, the M system is what I’ve committted to and my core lens choices seem to have reduced to the 35 & 50 APO Summicrons, with the 21, 28 & 75 Summiluxes added as needed. In terms of cameras, the M-A, M10-D and Monochrom are well sufficent to provide choice, and confusion as I head out the door!  My plan has been to use these til they stop, leaving me with the M-A when the electronics on the digital Ms fail (and Leica fails to fix them).

However, the M11-M does look appealing.  I prefer black & white photography, as I find colour difficult to balance (I don’t mean in processing, but in composition).  The strongest colour images for me are those with few colours - it may be the strong / contrasty light here, but for me photography is not about capturing reality; but a version of it.  I hope one day to master colour photography, but time passes - black & white seems to be my happy place.

I don’t think I can justify two Monochrom cameras, but I do have my name down for the M11-M.  Not sure I can part with my original M9 based Monochrom, though.  It will be interesting to see if the M11=M suffers from the freezing which seems to have plagued the M11 (judging by the comments on this forum).  I too would prefer the M10 shutter, but sometimes we can’t have everything …

[jonoslack]

43 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

It was the malleability of the raw files out of the original Monochrom that got me hooked.  I still love using that camera above anything else.  Is the quality of the images I take sufficient to justify the expense?  My silver chrome Monochrom is still the most expensive M camera I have bought (save perhaps the long gone M60, but that had a lens included).  I don’t think the quality of the images is relevant really - a crap photo taken with an M11M is no better or worse than a crap taken with an A7 or X1D II.

For myself, the M system is what I’ve committted to and my core lens choices seem to have reduced to the 35 & 50 APO Summicrons, with the 21, 28 & 75 Summiluxes added as needed. In terms of cameras, the M-A, M10-D and Monochrom are well sufficent to provide choice, and confusion as I head out the door!  My plan has been to use these til they stop, leaving me with the M-A when the electronics on the digital Ms fail (and Leica fails to fix them).

However, the M11-M does look appealing.  I prefer black & white photography, as I find colour difficult to balance (I don’t mean in processing, but in composition).  The strongest colour images for me are those with few colours - it may be the strong / contrasty light here, but for me photography is not about capturing reality; but a version of it.  I hope one day to master colour photography, but time passes - black & white seems to be my happy place.

I don’t think I can justify two Monochrom cameras, but I do have my name down for the M11-M.  Not sure I can part with my original M9 based Monochrom, though.  It will be interesting to see if the M11=M suffers from the freezing which seems to have plagued the M11 (judging by the comments on this forum).  I too would prefer the M10 shutter, but sometimes we can’t have everything …

Hi There - I hope you're flourishing.

what a good post. The only Monochrom I own is the M9M - and I still use it sometimes - so brave of Leica to release it, and I really feel it was the turning point for them. I quite agree that photography is about catching a version of reality. The hanging plaguing the M11 was definitely firmware and not hardware, and I think they've finally got on top of it (mostly 🤣). If you can manage the shutter noise (I can) then the advantages are rather a game changer. 

I'd love to have an M11M, but probably I'll stick with my M11 (if I bought everything I tested I'd definitely be bankrupt (and divorced!))

All the best

 

[250swb]

1 hour ago, jonoslack said:

I do hope you're wrong about that - I was hoping that making it very clear that I do post processing would make people think. . . . . maybe I should also include the unmodified DNG files!

The people who think ‘sod off Leica’ are the people doing the thinking, for half the money of the M11M you can have an entire new camera system by getting the new Pentax Monochrome. The Leica M11M is a status symbol rarely to be used by professionals or knowledgable amateurs for stretching a photographers boundaries. You are now talking about the people spending massive amounts of money for tiny incremental gains that are unlikely to be delivered in real life. Post processing is a distraction because for that sort of money most buyers will think aghast that it’s like going into the Michelin star kitchen to collect your own dinner from the chef. Leica are now losing track of their user base and in danger of becoming like the oozlum bird

[IkarusJohn]

1 hour ago, jonoslack said:

Hi There - I hope you're flourishing.

what a good post. The only Monochrom I own is the M9M - and I still use it sometimes - so brave of Leica to release it, and I really feel it was the turning point for them. I quite agree that photography is about catching a version of reality. The hanging plaguing the M11 was definitely firmware and not hardware, and I think they've finally got on top of it (mostly 🤣). If you can manage the shutter noise (I can) then the advantages are rather a game changer. 

I'd love to have an M11M, but probably I'll stick with my M11 (if I bought everything I tested I'd definitely be bankrupt (and divorced!))

All the best

 

Very well, thank you, Jono.

It looks like this year, we will finally be traveling internationally - which I’m looking forward to.  We start with a week in Aitutaki (an atoll in the Cook Islands), then Paris for a conference in late October, with a side trip to Italy.  Here’s hoping!

I have kept my SL, the 24-90 zoom and the Elmarit-R 180/2.8.  That combination gives me a useful weathersealed zoom and a telephoto (with converter) and a nice base for lenses like the 21 Summilux and 50 Npctilux 0.95.  The real pleasure for me is the M system, between 28mm and 75mm.  

I must admit that the M11 was a real turn off for me:

• permanent live view
• the shutter - it is perfect with the M10!
• the cropping and pixel binning struck me as a pointless gimmick

But then, on the positive side:

• the sensor seems to be a significant improvement, despite the increased pixels I don’t need
• losing the baseplate (pointless on a digital camera)
• USB-C charging in camera and better battery
• improved connection with Fotos
• internal memory

On balance, apart from the shutter and losing the centre-weighted metering (another pointless change, in my view), I could ignore the things I don’t like so much by just setting the camera the way I like and moving on.  However, I’m not an upgrade kind of guy.  While the cameras I have work, I see no need to change.  So, instead of ordering a new camera, I succombed and bought the 35 APO Summicron-M.

I can see the benefit of trading my M9 Monochrom for the M11-M, and I have put my name down; but I doubt I will go through with the trade.  While the Monochrom is quirky, its files are fabulous, and I’d rather just use it til it dies.  If I didn’t already have a monochrome Leica, I would definitely buy the M11-M. Somehow, there’s something very liberating about being constrained!

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[algrove]

John

To me the one positive you missed is the more accurate meter. This is a big deal many miss talking about.

Of course other pluses are the bigger battery which is fabulous, the top button next to the shutter release button which I use with the EVF from time to time for focus magnification instead of the auto magnification you can have when turning the focus ring and of course the EVF and grip both of which have matured in the right direction.