M11 or M11 Monochrome ?

[antonioxrosa]

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I sold my M10 and hesitating now between the M11 and the M11 Monochrome. I shoot b&w and the immediate answer would be Monochrome. However I have the following concern and I would appreciate others opinions.

Shooting in colour and move to b&w in post give me the opportunity to "simulate" colour filters by adjusting light in each colour channel, something I cann't do with the monochrome. I am also ware that with the monochrome I will gain more light and dynamic range but I will have to use external filters if I want for instance block some light on a blue sky.

Thoughts?

Thanks

António

[newtoleica]

If you shoot B&W film you would be used to using filters. However less convenient. 

suggest you find some original M11 and M11M DNG files to play around with and see what suits you. I think DPR still has some up?

 

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[M11 for me]

From a technical perspective you mention some valid points. It gives you a lot of flexibility to have the color version. And when you set your in-camera JPS setting to B&W you see everything in B&W when using either the back screen or a visoflex2.

Now comes the but: All your DNG images that you get in post will still be in color. You will then have to convert them in B&W.

The actual thing with a Monochrom camera is the fact that you purely have think in B&W. And you get nothing else than B&W. This is probably a very big difference when you think of photography. You have to love the B&W look.

And just remember that it is true that the Monochrom M11 has an advantage of about 2 LV. But 2 things to that: A monochrom camera has only one channel and through that it can blow out highlight very quickly (more than color sensor with its 3 channels). Because of that you might tend to underexpose. This make the 2 LV advantage less useful as you might think. Then you need light when you take images. So what good are 25'000 or higher ISO in reality (an M11 renders well up to 12'500 ISO). You might do better to buy Topaz products instead or when you use Lightroom Classic then you might want to use the new Denoise AI function.

You ask a very difficult question. 

[Jon Warwick]

Personally I notice the added digital processing that the color filter array does to an image when captured with a color sensor.  Even if I match the tonality as closely as possible between (say) an M11 and a Monochrom, there is enough difference in the rendering that I readily notice it, even when flicking quickly through files on a PC screen or looking casually at prints. It might be that others don't see the difference or are not fussed by it, which is all cool. But for me, I can tell that M11 files are made with a digital camera due to my eyes detecting the added camera processing from the color filter array, whereas the Monochroms look more like film (ie, more "natural" and less processed) than any digital camera I've used. For that reason, the Monochrom's are the only digital cameras where I've really really like the output, and don't miss using film.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Jon Warwick

[robsonj]

I have a m11 and q2m. There is tonality in the bw’s you get from a monochrom that you can’t get from a colour sensor, you just can’t, but for me the m11 has got very close to the q2m. Will I eventually trade up the q2m to a m11m…. Probably

[MarkP]

38 minutes ago, Jon Warwick said:

Personally I notice the added digital processing that the color filter array does to an image when captured with a color sensor.  Even if I match the tonality as closely as possible between (say) an M11 and a Monochrom, there is enough difference in the rendering that I readily notice it, even when flicking quickly through files on a PC screen or looking casually at prints. It might be that others don't see the difference or are not fussed by it, which is all cool. But for me, I can tell that M11 files are made with a digital camera due to my eyes detecting the added camera processing from the color filter array, whereas the Monochroms look more like film (ie, more "natural" and less processed) than any digital camera I've used. For that reason, the Monochrom's are the only digital cameras where I've really really like the output, and don't miss using film.

And it has ever been so with the Monochroms.

[antonioxrosa]

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3 hours ago, M11 for me said:

From a technical perspective you mention some valid points. It gives you a lot of flexibility to have the color version. And when you set your in-camera JPS setting to B&W you see everything in B&W when using either the back screen or a visoflex2.

Now comes the but: All your DNG images that you get in post will still be in color. You will then have to convert them in B&W.

The actual thing with a Monochrom camera is the fact that you purely have think in B&W. And you get nothing else than B&W. This is probably a very big difference when you think of photography. You have to love the B&W look.

And just remember that it is true that the Monochrom M11 has an advantage of about 2 LV. But 2 things to that: A monochrom camera has only one channel and through that it can blow out highlight very quickly (more than color sensor with its 3 channels). Because of that you might tend to underexpose. This make the 2 LV advantage less useful as you might think. Then you need light when you take images. So what good are 25'000 or higher ISO in reality (an M11 renders well up to 12'500 ISO). You might do better to buy Topaz products instead or when you use Lightroom Classic then you might want to use the new Denoise AI function.

You ask a very difficult question. 

Many thanks for your contribution. Very much in line with my concern. I am absolutely sure I want to get the best bw photos, thinking in shadow and light, my doubt is which is the best tool to get it.....

[robsonj]

1 hour ago, antonioxrosa said:

Many thanks for your contribution. Very much in line with my concern. I am absolutely sure I want to get the best bw photos, thinking in shadow and light, my doubt is which is the best tool to get it.....

Ultimately only you can decide, you can take a world class black and white photo with the M11 and a hot garbage mess of a black and white photo with the M11M, and visa versa 

[rustyrus]

It’s no contest…
 

I own both camera and love them both. The M11m’s high iso performance can’t be replicated as well as the dynamic range. 
 

That alone is worth using a few filters on a lens for me if I had to pick one. Also just to be clear, I do shoot with filters on my monochrome camera and I enjoy it.

 

I could care less about losing the sliders. The joy of the M11m is you don’t have that stuff. It’s a monochrome dng file…..

 

 

[mekener]

    I saw the m11m in London 2 weeks ago while I was on a family trip and immediately started lusting after one. I went on the trip with a m11 and two lenses(35 and 50 mm) in a very light sling bag over my shoulder. I really love shooting in b&w when I'am traveling alone or a photo walk but on an everyday basis with family and friends sometimes I like the option to have color as well(birthdays, nights out, day out fishing, a beautiful sunset etc...). I have a Q2 as well so I thought maybe I could use the Q2 for the color stuff, sell the M11 and get the monochrome but I like traveling light. If I had the m11m I would have to carry two bodies with me in a much larger and heavier bag. One of the biggest reasons I love Leica M systems is that they are easy to carry around while you are going about your day... I just couldn't justify the purchase or I just fooled myself with this logic, not completely sure yet🤪. 

    Anyway, that's where I'm at now on this subject...

[jaapv]

Hmm… carrying the Q is not THAT much heavier, a mere 1.62 lb. A decent boxed lunch would be similar. The M11m plus the Q would easily fit into the smallest Billingham. 
 

I’m sure that you hoped that nobody would say this  

[Jon Warwick]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

Hmm… carrying the Q is not THAT much heavier, a mere 1.62 lb. A decent boxed lunch would be similar. The M11m plus the Q would easily fit into the smallest Billingham. 
 

I’m sure that you hoped that nobody would say this  

“If I had the m11m I would have to carry two bodies with me in a much larger and heavier bag”, but I am inclined to agree with Jaap, I’d think something like the Billingham for Leica M is light and manageable IMHO for 2x Ms or 1x M plus Q back to back. Of course, the newest M11 bodies including the Monochrom are lighter than the predecessors, so even better!

Edited May 5, 2023 by Jon Warwick

[jaapv]

Actually I regularly carry M9M and M9 in a Billingham go Leica. Plus’s an extra lens an odds and ends. 

[mekener]

These new camera launches are always emotional/financial rollercoaster rides for sure. 😁

[MarkP]

Yep. I’m still resisting…just 🙄

Edited May 5, 2023 by MarkP

[algrove]

I own both M11's and a Q2 Reporter. The Q2 has been left at home ever since getting the M11M.

I have always used filters on my Monochrom or Phase Achromatic cameras, but not with the M11M since its dynamic range is so good with the settings mentioned below. (Will start trying red filters at some point in time as that has always been my go to B&W filter.) In additional I use the setting called "Highlight Weighted"(HW) metering. I use this setting even on my M11 which I set EV to -2/3 and I also do this on my M11M as well. This HW cuts back on H/L exposure levels since you are telling the camera to watch the H/L's for you.

Based on Jono Slacks article and his answers to my questions I set the SS dial to A and the camera picks the SS based on my ISO setting which stays at 125 unless more exposure needed. When in dark environments I either take it off A and select my own SS and adjust the ISO for my needs at this exposure reading. Jono also mentioned setting the clipping lower than default he found not needed with HW metering.

Also keep in mind if you want a truly B&W experience then using the Viso will show your scene in B&W whereas with the M11 one must select a jpg B&W setting and record jpgs (which for me is a waste since I never use jpgs). I send jpgs on my M11 to IN and DNG to SD. BTW the new 256GB IN for the Mono is superb and is not wasted recording jpgs. It its a true mirror backup.

Edited May 16, 2023 by algrove

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Some people can *see* in b&w using a colour camera. Some find it easier with a mono camera to sharpen their focus. While the M11M does have some technical advantages I'd only get the M11M if you're in the latter camp. I have both but I'm weak.....

Gordon

[Olaf_ZG]

To me, the post production is a big difference. Working whole day in the office, I don’t want to spend much time behind a computer at home.

Having a monochrom file to start with, leaves me with many decisions less to start with and only tones, dodging and burning to do.

so, I decided that if a want b/w, a monochrom is the way to go. The SL is there for color, and random color snaps from family outings I leave to the family and there iphones…

[neonvoid]

If you're asking you're probably get both eventually.

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[fededuran]

I have a M11 and 2/3 of all my pictures are taken in bnw, even enjoying color files as much as the monochrome ones. A few years ago, Leica Spain lent me a M10M and I agree with other photographers here: those files are far more film-ish than either a converted M11 raw or a GFX 100s file. So I ask myself almost every day if owning both models is a good idea. I'm not quitting from color, but I miss the monochrome value proposition (to me is not the ISO performance nor the superior sharpness/detail but clearly the rendering). 

Edited May 17, 2023 by fededuran