M11 or M11 Monochrome ?

[Jeff S]

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18 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Some people can *see* in b&w using a colour camera. Some find it easier with a mono camera to sharpen their focus. While the M11M does have some technical advantages I'd only get the M11M if you're in the latter camp. I have both but I'm weak.....

Gordon

My rationale for a Monochrom is different.  I can “see” in b&w without any problem, having shot b&w film for decades, even when seeing the world in color. But a Monochrom brings me closer to that b&w film experience because I’m not distracted by colors, or by looking for potential color pics, since the camera is incapable (PP “tricks” aside). It’s a mindset and discipline, not an ability to envision b&w tonalities.

Jeff

[Ne314satel]

On 5/3/2023 at 1:14 PM, Jon Warwick said:

the Monochroms look more like film

In the old days, when the m9p and m9m were released, the difference between them was visible primarily in resolution (although the sensor was the same) and less in the tone of b/w transitions. With the release of sensors with 50mp and higher, it is very difficult to see the difference in b/w between m11m and m11 after PS processing of camera dng files.

And you can still always see the difference between film and monochrome on a large photo print.

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[DadDadDaddyo]

This is very interesting from the perspective of an M10M/M11 owner. 

Ne314satel, can you amplify on what, from your description, sound like possibly narrowing visible differences between born-monochrome and the color conversion output? Reviews I've read understandably concentrate on the differences in output, not the similarities. I could believe that if those differences are narrowing it might take an increasingly critical eye to perceive them. 

The M10M has been producing output for me that is simply thrilling, steadily and consistently. 

But as a user of the Fujifilm GFX100S (and the GFX50R before that) I found the monochrome conversions from those sensors also to be extremely good, especially when evaluated as prints in the 16x20 to 24x30 inch range. 

If the differences in final printed output are in fact narrowing, is this a product of increased sensor resolution? Do the effects of interpolation become more difficult to perceive visually with smaller pixels? Or is it attributable to conversion software and methods?

I ask because this is the first I've heard that such differences may be narrowing. If it were true it could mean that as resolutions continue to increase, or as conversion methods become increasingly refined, the differences may continue to narrow.  

[Jeff S]

4 hours ago, Ne314satel said:

In the old days, when the m9p and m9m were released, the difference between them was visible primarily in resolution (although the sensor was the same) and less in the tone of b/w transitions. With the release of sensors with 50mp and higher, it is very difficult to see the difference in b/w between m11m and m11 after PS processing of camera dng files.

 

The trade off for me using any color digital M (I don’t own the M11) versus any Monochrom (own the MM and M10M) is the ability to use color channels in post with the former.  Colored lens filters offer far less flexibility, which does translate to potential b&w tonal differences (even if subtle) between the two approaches.  

[I neither print large, nor crop so extensively, nor shoot in extreme darkness, so resolution and ISO differences aren’t critical for my needs.]
 

Jeff

[Segal]

I shoot both color and black and white with my M11, and the M11M has tempted me with its low-light performance. But other than that, the regular M11 provides more than enough for my needs - I don't need the extra resolution/clarity, and I do not have to deal with filters. 

[oka]

Went same process with M10 and M10M, had both and same prons and cons as others have written. Now I have two M11's (no mono).

While I have to agree about the mono's superior tonality, the gap is much smaller with M11's or M10R's high resolution sensors unless you print big prints than with M10's.

My wife isn't too happy having all bw photos from the family outings and when I had M10 & M10M combo, I missed more having two same cameras which I could use same time than having superior mono camera. Also with long service times with Leica, I felt more comfortable having two same cameras instead of left with either color or mono camera (I had M10's regularly in service for various reasons, unlike with M11's).

If I would have time for just personal projects, I would buy the mono, but with current life with three small children's I don't see practical reason to get mono.

With current progress with sensors, the performance gap to mono is getting smaller and smaller (unless you shoot mainly with high iso).

[DBounce]

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I’m loving my M11M. I have other cameras for when I need color, and a Q3 on order also. I honestly think I’ll wait for the M11R before purchasing another M body at this point.

[Anok]

I had an M10 and changed it by adding cash to M11. I cried for a long time, missing the M10. When I forgot I fell in love with the M11. It bothered me that I have color and I take black and white photos. I didn't feel comfortable with it. This time, learned from the past, I bought the M11M but left the M11 to decide what to choose. These are such different cameras and each one is great. I left both for now, but if I try the SL3 or SL2 / SL2-s, it probably won't make sense. We'll see.

[Kiwimac]

I was teetering on the brink of the mono. 
 

In the end, the Fates stepped in and my dealer offered me an M11 in Grade 10 only 6 months old at a keen price with the balance of the official warranty. 
 

I figured it was as good a deal as I was likely to get to try the new platform so I took it. 
 

I might still get a mono but for now, processing M11 images to B&W will get me close enough. 

[Olaf_ZG]

Though color files give more possibilities in post, I prefer to work with monochrome files for b/w. With color, somehow the choice with colorsliders makes me lose time as I keep on finetuning. With monochrom I don’t have this. 

To me the whole handling of the m resonate with b/w, probably due to the fact that the rf is an ovf and not evf.

For color I use another system.

[Basiltahan]

I will add my 2 cents to this thread. 
 

I have both M11 and M11M. Quite simply, the M11 is so good, that up until ISO 3200, there’s just not much in it between the two (standard B&W conversion of the M11). But here is where things get interesting. From 3200 and higher, the noise difference separates and not in a linear way. At ISO 3200, there is probably a one stop difference by ISO 50,000 there is more than a two stop difference (ISO 50000 on the Monochrom looks “better” than ISO 12,500 on the M11). 

Even at low ISO’s there is a difference in the shadow noise and when recovering shadows, the Monochrom is better. But that is counting hairs. 
 

The other big difference is the way noise happens. The Bayer filter causes more “clumpy” noise (At high ISO’s) which more quickly destroys detail. The Monochrom noise is more “uniform” and preserves fine edge detail much better. I think that this acutance makes a big difference in large prints even at low ISOs.

I have a set of comparison photos from ISO 400 - ISO 50000. I’ll post them here is people are interested. 

[rustyrus]

On 5/3/2023 at 2:16 AM, antonioxrosa said:

I sold my M10 and hesitating now between the M11 and the M11 Monochrome. I shoot b&w and the immediate answer would be Monochrome. However I have the following concern and I would appreciate others opinions.

Shooting in colour and move to b&w in post give me the opportunity to "simulate" colour filters by adjusting light in each colour channel, something I cann't do with the monochrome. I am also ware that with the monochrome I will gain more light and dynamic range but I will have to use external filters if I want for instance block some light on a blue sky.

Thoughts?

Thanks

António

What did you get?

[Segal]

19 hours ago, Basiltahan said:

I have a set of comparison photos from ISO 400 - ISO 50000. I’ll post them here is people are interested. 

Please, do! 

[soccerrick10]

On 6/17/2023 at 11:03 PM, Basiltahan said:

I will add my 2 cents to this thread. 
 

I have both M11 and M11M. Quite simply, the M11 is so good, that up until ISO 3200, there’s just not much in it between the two (standard B&W conversion of the M11). But here is where things get interesting. From 3200 and higher, the noise difference separates and not in a linear way. At ISO 3200, there is probably a one stop difference by ISO 50,000 there is more than a two stop difference (ISO 50000 on the Monochrom looks “better” than ISO 12,500 on the M11). 

Even at low ISO’s there is a difference in the shadow noise and when recovering shadows, the Monochrom is better. But that is counting hairs. 
 

The other big difference is the way noise happens. The Bayer filter causes more “clumpy” noise (At high ISO’s) which more quickly destroys detail. The Monochrom noise is more “uniform” and preserves fine edge detail much better. I think that this acutance makes a big difference in large prints even at low ISOs.

I have a set of comparison photos from ISO 400 - ISO 50000. I’ll post them here is people are interested. 

@Basiltahan - When comparing M11 vs. M11M, the urban legend is that the differences happen at much higher ISO ratings.  I thought that as well.  But, in the testing I'm doing, I see the same thing you are reporting.  The differences are subtle at lower ratings, but present.  Since most of what I do is in lower light levels, I'm really leaning toward the M11M.  I was thinking of going Q2M and M11.  I think I might reverse that and go M11M with Q2 or possibly Q3.

[Al Brown]

I am here for "M11 can also be M11 Monochrome" answers.

[antonioxrosa]

Finally I have my Leica M11 Monochrome and the experience so far is great. No doubt that the fact of knowing that I only have b&w available change all the shooting process. It slows down all the process and make me thing about end result. Great experience. Still learning.

[Scoe141]

On 6/22/2023 at 4:53 PM, antonioxrosa said:

Finally I have my Leica M11 Monochrome and the experience so far is great. No doubt that the fact of knowing that I only have b&w available change all the shooting process. It slows down all the process and make me thing about end result. Great experience. Still learning.

Congrats on the new camera!

I'm happy you went with the M11M.  The M10M was my first monochrome camera, and it's been an exceptional experience.  The tonality is remarkable.  Part of my decision was based on the fact I convert the majority of my images to BW.  

Enjoy!  

[Franky]

I too have both and I am happy.
I hope my eyes will keep up with me for a long time

[ColdShower]

@antonioxrosa I use my Leica M Color to create BW photos by shooting DNG and JPG simultaneously.

What I do to get the M11M experience (pseudo) is to set it to select high contrast BW under JPG Setting (Menu/ Page2/4th option top to bottom) and select Film option BW HC (High Contrast)
This will give me the preview on the screen and Visoflex2 in black and white. and my whole approach becomes just like the M11M.

You can also chose BW Nat (Natural) for less contrasty JPG images JPG.

The quality of the JPGs is amazing and most of the time the camera does a pretty good job at rendering a pleasant BW image without much adjustment (And you can stretch them a bit in post) Depending what I use my photos for I may go straight for the JPG.
Your DNGs will always be in color though. The good advantage of this is that you retain your colors, and you have the best of both worlds.

If I want to use the DNGs instead, I have created a Leica Monochrome preset that I apply to my DNGs when I import them so I don't even see the image in color in Lightroom after importing. 
Here are some sample images converted that way with no further post processing than the conversion during import.

I'm sharing the presets I've created in here as well (they were are meant to be used when shooting with Highlight Highlight Weighted metering mode as they lift the shadows)
But by tweaking the exposure or shadows you can make it work for any image.
👉https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lRAZ0iPNh8S-DPZnjbUGziUsQMeDTydg/view?usp=drive_link

 

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[thrid]

I'm in a similar boat. I haven't shot color since they discontinued Kodachrome, but personally I would go for the standard M11.

Color files allow software like Silver Efx Pro emulate the spectral response of various black and white film stocks. Their Tri-X and HP5+ emulations are really good.
To me that a very big reason right there to go with the standard M11. If you don't care about using filters or film stock emulations than it's a mute point, but personally I have always felt that the spectral response of the Mono reminds me a little of video... 

I need to shoot color for work and may suddenly find a subject matter for my personal projects that I want to shoot in color.

Given the cost of the M11 I'm going for flexibility. Unless you're rolling in cash you're not spending $20-30,000 on 2-3 M11 bodies. 

The dynamic range of the standard M11 files is huge and the extra stop from the mono is not as critical as it used to be. 
61MP from a bayer pattern sensor is a lot. I'm not printing billboards, so I really would not benefit from the extra sharpness the the mono delivers. Personally I feel that these cameras are already too sharp, but that's me.

If I had money to burn, sure. I would get a Mono, but given the $9000 price tag of the M11 I'll got for flexibility.