SL2 firmware update request

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8 minutes ago, helged said:

There is an option to activate the "AF Assist Lamp" (Camera Settings -> AF Assist Lamp -> On). Should work at shortish distances.

Cheers! I will see, if this works out under early afternoon indoor daylight situations when I am at the place next time.

[ZHNL]

1. Add EFCS in near future. This is extremely important for 47M camera. I have to using E-shutter for lens like Panasonic 70-200mm. However, once thing start to move, E-shutter won't cut it. This is the biggest flaw so far I found with this camera. If you want a effective 47M output consistently, you either use E-shutter or Tripod. Not good. 
2. Add DOF preview. another big flaw. 
3. Decouple shutter from AF, not just in MF mode. We have compatibility problem with Panasonic pro lens with focus clutch. 
4.  Add focus by wire rotation angle option for focus by wire lens, especially SL summicron. Panasonic S1 has it. It is a handy feature and very practical.  
5. Add option to change auto area focus area size. 
6. Add format ratio into FN button option or Favorite menu, otherwise, this is a useless feature bury deep in menu. 

  I really hope Leica people read this and take note. 

 

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[SrMi]

18 minutes ago, ZHNL said:

1. Add EFCS in near future. This is extremely important for 47M camera. I have to using E-shutter for lens like Panasonic 70-200mm. However, once thing start to move, E-shutter won't cut it. This is the biggest flaw so far I found with this camera. If you want a effective 47M output consistently, you either use E-shutter or Tripod. Not good. 
2. <snip>

  I really hope Leica people read this and take note. 

 

What kind of issues do you experience due to lack of EFCS on SL2? AFAIK, EFCS typically solves shutter shock issues at certain shutter speeds regardless of focal length, and a tripod does not help.

[ZHNL]

7 minutes ago, SrMi said:

What kind of issues do you experience due to lack of EFCS on SL2? AFAIK, EFCS typically solves shutter shock issues at certain shutter speeds regardless of focal length, and a tripod does not help.

I agree with you about Tripod might n't help (I haven't done any test to confirm though but result is pretty bad handhold, tripod will definitely help. I have steady hands better than most I would say)

I have lots of issue with Panasonic 70-200f4 with mechanical shutter. The difference is night and day. Without E-shutter, I would say it become a 12M camera average. I also checked M glasses, less problem but that could be just from short length. I need more time to do systematic test for M glass but for now Panasonic 70-200 issue is confirmed. 

Until then, E-shutter only for me with this camera.  

Edited December 14, 2019 by ZHNL

[chicagophoto]

1 hour ago, ZHNL said:

1. Add EFCS in near future. This is extremely important for 47M camera. I have to using E-shutter for lens like Panasonic 70-200mm. However, once thing start to move, E-shutter won't cut it. This is the biggest flaw so far I found with this camera. If you want a effective 47M output consistently, you either use E-shutter or Tripod. Not good. 
2. Add DOF preview. another big flaw. 
3. Decouple shutter from AF, not just in MF mode. We have compatibility problem with Panasonic pro lens with focus clutch. 
4.  Add focus by wire rotation angle option for focus by wire lens, especially SL summicron. Panasonic S1 has it. It is a handy feature and very practical.  
5. Add option to change auto area focus area size. 
6. Add format ratio into FN button option or Favorite menu, otherwise, this is a useless feature bury deep in menu. 

  I really hope Leica people read this and take note. 

 

I think if people start sending Leica Tech support emails with firmware requests they will at least see the interest from photographers to add some features. I have been in correspondence with Leica both in the USA and Germany about decoupling the AF from the shutter and bringing to their attention the Panasonic lens issue

[SrMi]

51 minutes ago, ZHNL said:

I agree with you about Tripod might n't help (I haven't done any test to confirm though but result is pretty bad handhold, tripod will definitely help. I have steady hands better than most I would say)

I have lots of issue with Panasonic 70-200f4 with mechanical shutter. The difference is night and day. Without E-shutter, I would say it become a 12M camera average. I also checked M glasses, less problem but that could be just from short length. I need more time to do systematic test for M glass but for now Panasonic 70-200 issue is confirmed. 

Until then, E-shutter only for me with this camera.  

Thanks for reporting this.

Has this issue been confirmed by others or is it a bad interaction between Panasonic lens and SL2? Is there an issue with interaction between BIS and OIS on Lumix lenses and SL2 bodies? Does it happen with image stabilization off as well?

I have tried SL 90-280 on S1R, with all three shutter types (Mech., EFC, Elect.) at focal lengths 120mm and 164mm, shutter speed 1/125 sec and f/8, image stabilization set to OIS. I see no difference in resolution or image quality.

I always wondered why Leica SL/SL2 can get away without having EFC, while almost all other mirrorless cameras need it. I have also seen no discussion about the necessity of EFC on S1/S1R. Maybe the larger camera body and different shutter design makes EFCS unnecessary?

[ZHNL]

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1 hour ago, SrMi said:

Thanks for reporting this.

Has this issue been confirmed by others or is it a bad interaction between Panasonic lens and SL2? Is there an issue with interaction between BIS and OIS on Lumix lenses and SL2 bodies? Does it happen with image stabilization off as well?

I have tried SL 90-280 on S1R, with all three shutter types (Mech., EFC, Elect.) at focal lengths 120mm and 164mm, shutter speed 1/125 sec and f/8, image stabilization set to OIS. I see no difference in resolution or image quality.

I always wondered why Leica SL/SL2 can get away without having EFC, while almost all other mirrorless cameras need it. I have also seen no discussion about the necessity of EFC on S1/S1R. Maybe the larger camera body and different shutter design makes EFCS unnecessary?

I have S1, no issue with mechanic shutter. I did the test after found SL2 issue. However Nikon Z7 has same issue. This is very fundermental issue of EVF based camera. As every exposure need 2nd curtain close before exposure, this will introduce vibration. 
Panasonic has one of best implementation of mechanical shutter I ever used. However, I do feel it is slightly slower than others. Either their IBIS take care of this one or extra delay helps. But they all have EFCS except SL2. 

Edited December 14, 2019 by ZHNL

[SrMi]

6 minutes ago, ZHNL said:

I have S1, no issue with mechanic shutter. I did the test after found SL2 issue. However Nikon Z7 has same issue. This is very fundermental issue of EVF based camera. As every exposure need 2nd curtain close before exposure, this will introduce vibration. 
Panasonic has one of best implementation of mechanical shutter I ever used. However, I do feel it is slightly slower than others. Either their IBIS take care of this one or extra delay helps. But they all have EFCS except SL2. 

AFAIK, most mirrorless cameras with focal-plane shutter have EFCS option. Leica SL and SL2 do not have it. Malik Om has been using SL with 70-200 f/4 and found no issues with shutter shock (he seems very happy with that combo). 
If SL2 has shutter shock, it will make the camera useless without EFCS. Since nobody else reported it, I am still suspecting some unfortunate interaction between the 70-200 f/4 and SL2. Can you reproduce the issue with image stabilization turned off (lens and camera)?

[ZHNL]

16 minutes ago, SrMi said:

AFAIK, most mirrorless cameras with focal-plane shutter have EFCS option. Leica SL and SL2 do not have it. Malik Om has been using SL with 70-200 f/4 and found no issues with shutter shock (he seems very happy with that combo). 
If SL2 has shutter shock, it will make the camera useless without EFCS. Since nobody else reported it, I am still suspecting some unfortunate interaction between the 70-200 f/4 and SL2. Can you reproduce the issue with image stabilization turned off (lens and camera)?

I don’t know. I saw a review Of 70-200 from him before. It was not a good one but the lens is one of best 70-200 type I tried.  SL2 mechanic shutter can shoot 10 frame per sec. M lens is not as obvious for sure but Panasonic is a lot heavy and bigger lens, and at 200mm?? 
if anyone want test this, shoot at infinity is easiest way to identify. Shutter speed around 1/60-/160, though even 1/200 may not safe. 
 

turn of OIS make it even worse. 

[ZHNL]

16 minutes ago, SrMi said:

AFAIK, most mirrorless cameras with focal-plane shutter have EFCS option. Leica SL and SL2 do not have it. Malik Om has been using SL with 70-200 f/4 and found no issues with shutter shock (he seems very happy with that combo). 
If SL2 has shutter shock, it will make the camera useless without EFCS. Since nobody else reported it, I am still suspecting some unfortunate interaction between the 70-200 f/4 and SL2. Can you reproduce the issue with image stabilization turned off (lens and camera)?

I don’t know. I saw a review Of 70-200 from him before. It was not a good one but the lens is one of best 70-200 type I tried.  SL2 mechanic shutter can shoot 10 frame per sec. M lens is not as obvious for sure but Panasonic is a lot heavy and bigger lens, and at 200mm?? 
if anyone want test this, shoot at infinity is easiest way to identify. Shutter speed around 1/60-/160, though even 1/200 may not safe. 
 

turn of OIS make it even worse. 

[ZHNL]

On 12/14/2019 at 1:04 PM, ZHNL said:

1. Add EFCS in near future. This is extremely important for 47M camera. I have to using E-shutter for lens like Panasonic 70-200mm. However, once thing start to move, E-shutter won't cut it. This is the biggest flaw so far I found with this camera. If you want a effective 47M output consistently, you either use E-shutter or Tripod. Not good. 
2. Add DOF preview. another big flaw. 
3. Decouple shutter from AF, not just in MF mode. We have compatibility problem with Panasonic pro lens with focus clutch. 
4.  Add focus by wire rotation angle option for focus by wire lens, especially SL summicron. Panasonic S1 has it. It is a handy feature and very practical.  
5. Add option to change auto area focus area size. 
6. Add format ratio into FN button option or Favorite menu, otherwise, this is a useless feature bury deep in menu. 

  I really hope Leica people read this and take note. 

 

About item #4. SL2 has the option in focus setting/manual set up. And it works with Panasonic 70-200. The tricky part is this will only apply for lens in AF mode. You don’t enable focus clutch. In AF mode, you have to either half press shutter or using joystick and at the same time turn focus ring to see this applied. And “manual set up “ Only available if you don’t engage focus clutch, otherwise it will grey out. 
 

and for Sigma 45mm, this option simply grey out no matter if you set lens in AF or MF. 

About item #3. The work around is holding joystick during shooting. It seems won’t Re-engage AF By press shutter. This is not perfect but decent enough. However, again. You will found out joystick focus will only be AFS regardless how you set it in AF mode. In other word, if you are in AFC mode, half press shutter will Do tracking focus, and back button will be AFS even you set back button AFC in manual mode which is the only way to programs this button. 
 

and for sigma lens, if you are in MF mode, disable shutter focus, program back button to do the AFC, the back button will AFC under this condition. 
 

anyway, lots of subtle issue here and there. TBH, none of them really bother me much. I just want report the issue here. SL2 for me is mainly M and S glasses platform with option to use SWA and telezoom for simple coverage and AF. 
 

I enjoy the system as is. 

Edited December 16, 2019 by ZHNL

[SrMi]

5 minutes ago, ZHNL said:

"3. Decouple shutter from AF, not just in MF mode. We have compatibility problem with Panasonic pro lens with focus clutch. "

<snip>
About item #3. The work around is holding joystick during shooting. It seems won’t Re-engage AF By press shutter. This is not perfect but decent enough. However, again. You will found out joystick focus will only be AFS regardless how you set it in AF mode. In other word, if you are in AFC mode, half press shutter will Do tracking focus, and back button will be AFS even you set back button AFC. 
<snip>

 

You can specify the function of joystick press in AFc/AFs as follows: AF-L, AE-L or AF-L + AE-L. If you specify AF-L (default?) then the focus will lock while pressing joystick even if you are in AF-C mode. This means that decoupling focusing from shutter buttons in AF modes is not enough, we would need to add AFs and AFc mode to joystick operations well.

In AFc mode and using joystick setting AF-L, it is possible to emulate some of the advantages of BBF as you lock focus with button press (instead of with button release).

[caissa]

On 12/8/2019 at 9:16 PM, FlashGordonPhotography said:

You really need to let go of how "Nikon does it". It's dead simple to get the same functionality on the SL2. The functionality is NOT the same as the SL. You have more options on the new camera.

If you set SAF or CAF in the focus mode you get shutter coupled AF. You can NOT get decoupled AF in these modes. Decoupled AF is via MANUAL FOCUS mode.

If you set MF in the drive mode you get back button AF with the joystick. You can set the joystick to either be SAF or CAF whilst in MF mode, using the *customise controls* menu.

To set this up:

1. Go to the *customise controls* section of the menu. Under *JOYSTICK* choose  *MF MODE*. The select whether you want SAF or CAF with the Joystick press.

2. Select *MF* on the focus mode (either in the menu or by touch on the quick menu screen).

3. Voila!!! You have decoupled AF with a choice of either SAF or CAF.

It's really not that hard.

If you want to set a quick way to switch between SAF and CAF while using BBF then you set a profile for each which is easily assignable to almost any button on the camera.

Gordon

Maybe it has been said already, but it is important that the “Nikon way” is also supported. Because with some Pana lenses the Leica way does not work. (AF should be disengaged from shutter. In MF mode some Pana lenses do not focus anymore.)

Also unclear (for me): Does BBF work with MC-21 ?

Edited December 26, 2019 by caissa

[setuporg]

On 11/24/2019 at 1:05 AM, scott kirkpatrick said:

But great consistency.  That is how the SL does it.

Fathers and sons: that's how we do it, son!:)

[michali]

10 hours ago, caissa said:

.........Also unclear (for me): Does BBF work with MC-21 ?

Yes it definitely does work. Tried it with the Canon 400mm f4 on the SL2.  Not sure if I'm imaging this, but maybe it's a fraction of a second slower than focusing via the shutter button?

As ZHNL suggests, pressing the Joystick and while shooting does decouple Focus from the Shutter. I tried taking an out of focus shot in AF mode using the shutter button only and the camera doesn't shoot.

Doing the same thing with the Joystick pressed while shooting, does activate the shutter irrespective if the image is out of focus.

 

 

Edited December 27, 2019 by michali

[Arrow]

Firmeware: 

- better AF in dark situations

- promised pixel shift and its applications

- something cool nobody does expect

Edited December 29, 2019 by Arrow

[helged]

Error, choosing user profiles with the rear screen activated:

When the rear screen is activated, shifting the user menu on the first menu page (the status screen), you can not toggle beyond the first user defined menu. With the EVF activated, you can freely pick any of the user defined menus.

For others to confirm:

• Activate the back screen
• Press the MENU-button 
• Move to and activate the profile icon
• Scroll to the right, and the first user menu after the 'Default profile' is always picked

[Aktenschrank]

22 minutes ago, helged said:

For others to confirm:

• Activate the back screen
• Press the MENU-button 
• Move to and activate the profile icon
• Scroll to the right, and the first user menu after the 'Default profile' is always picked

I cannot reproduce this. After activating the user profile icon I can freely scroll through and select any of the user profiles via swiping (keep the finger in contact with the screen) as well as using the thumb wheel. What I noticed though , and maybe that's what you describe, is that if you do a very short swipe (remove you finger from the screen quickly while swiping), the profile next to the one selected on the right will be confirmed directly and you get back to the status screen. For me personally, I would think that those different behaviour are rather a feature than a bug...

[helged]

5 minutes ago, Aktenschrank said:

I cannot reproduce this. After activating the user profile icon I can freely scroll through and select any of the user profiles via swiping (keep the finger in contact with the screen) as well as using the thumb wheel. What I noticed though , and maybe that's what you describe, is that if you do a very short swipe (remove you finger from the screen quickly while swiping), the profile next to the one selected on the right will be confirmed directly and you get back to the status screen. For me personally, I would think that those different behaviour are rather a feature than a bug...

Interesting; then our bodies differ; I am on camera body firmware 1.0. 

Neither finger sweeping, joystick nor thumb wheel let me reach the user menu number 2 or higher, the camera always stops at - and picks - user menu number 1...

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Hallo,

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[michali]

1 hour ago, helged said:

Error, choosing user profiles with the rear screen activated:

When the rear screen is activated, shifting the user menu on the first menu page (the status screen), you can not toggle beyond the first user defined menu. With the EVF activated, you can freely pick any of the user defined menus.

For others to confirm:

• Activate the back screen
• Press the MENU-button 
• Move to and activate the profile icon
• Scroll to the right, and the first user menu after the 'Default profile' is always picked

 

30 minutes ago, helged said:

Interesting; then our bodies differ; I am on camera body firmware 1.0. 

Neither finger sweeping, joystick nor thumb wheel let me reach the user menu number 2 or higher, the camera always stops at - and picks - user menu number 1...

+1 mine does the same, only "Default Profile" is picked.

Never noticed this before. Maybe it has something to do with how many User Profiles are activated? At this stage I only have 1 user profile activated. How many user profiles have you set Helge?