Luxury Camera Bags by Thorsten von Overgaard

[M9reno]

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Wow, that was a love-fest last night. Ive just woken up with a massive headache, but still applaud Thorsten for what he's done.

 

I consider myself pretty cynical, yet would agree with Andy that this has had to be one of the best threads on this Forum for many years.

 

In just a few days:

 

- I've read and understood that elephants are far more endangered than I thought.

 

- I've become the proud sponsor of a baby elephant, Jotto of Kenya.

 

- I've realised that you can buy some amazing things on the internet, like Zimbabwean certificates and Harvard diplomas.

 

- I'm now looking for a way to buy at least 500 friends on this Forum, and a landed title by which I will henceforth be known here (and elsewhere) as Al von M9reno.

 

Awesome.

[ianman]

   

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[Peter H]

I really don’t care whether Thorsten’s change of direction is 100% commercially driven.

 

In our little corner of the world we’ve persuaded one small commercial operator that flogging dead elephants doesn’t pay. That is a good thing.

 

If you want to take pleasure from accusing him of cynicism and those who have thanked him of naive gullibility, you’re changing the subject and should maybe start another thread where we can compare moral compasses and that sort of thing.

[stunsworth]

What outcome did those taking a cynical stand want from this?

 

Total destruction of Thorsten perhaps?

Sometimes saying sorry isn’t enough, as Australian cricketers recently found out.

 

Am I looking for the total destruction of Thorsten? Of course not, I’m just questioning whether his Damascene conversion is sincere or not - something only Thorsten knows.

[vortex]

Thank you Thorsten. Hit all the suggestions I made in my earlier post and the forum responded as I thought it would. Well done! Takes a big man to do what you did. 

 

Now you know if you "need" alligator or not.

 

Ok.... for the elephants folks, what about the crocs?

[Paul J]

I am glad and relieved the bags are no longer. That is all that matters right now.

 

What's more is that more and more people are aware of these urgent conservation issues and I hope people talk and spread the word.

 

A world of no more extinctions, is to me the best shot of any sort of Utopia the world can actually experience.

 

I have never been happier to be a part of this forum, what a great place it is. Other forums shut the the conversations down and I hope this can serve as an example that these are the very sort of places where change can be made.

[MarkP]

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The point is that as a group, and clearly a very influential one on TO’s business, we have worked together here and achieved an outcome we all wanted.

 

Most of us here would never have dreamed that someone in this day and age would even consider making products sourced from a critically endangered species. I’ll keep away from the more general issues of using animal products.

 

When I first skimmed TO’s site I just assumed that it was faux elephant hide and thought it was pretty crass. Then I realised to my astonishment and dismay that he was proudly promoting use of the real stuff :-O

 

Whether TO has now had an epiphany, really does now understand the issues, and/or is trying to save his reputation/business (Live by the internet, die by the internet!) I care not.

 

He has publically reversed his previous position for whatever reason, is no longer marketing/making elephant hide products, has stated that endangered species trade is wrong, and has sponsored an elephant - exactly the outcome that the contributors to 26 pages of this thread has sought to achieve. What more could we ask for?

 

We should all bask in the glory of our achievement for a most worthy cause.

 

...and the long term survival of the elephant will now guaranteed with the application of the considerable promotional skills of TO, Elephant Ambassador.

 

Time to move on to the next new ‘best bag for my Leica thread’.

Edited March 30, 2018 by MarkP

[Ouroboros]

Thorsten saw his reputation, and possibly business, going down the pan; so like any good marketeer he did a backflip and in a matter of days changed his opinion from being a supporter of the use of elephant hide to thinking it’s very wrong. Colour me cynical, but I don’t buy it. I’m sure the elephants will grateful whatever the reason for the change.

 

Personally, I find the praise that is being heaped upon him by some here following his dubious volte face rather more sickening than encouraging. This whole debacle reflects, amongst numerous other facets of human nature, a side of more recent Leica ownership culture that does not follow the original Leica ethos.

 

Leica occupies a unique place in the evolution of photography and the documentation of monumental worldwide news and events over many decades.  To see such a history and reputation potentially being tarnished by association with unscrupulous personal greed like this is disappointing, but Leica themselves have played their part in promoting an elitist, haute couture image from time to time.  It is hardly surprising that such an image will encourage exploitation as we've seen here.

 

I said in an earlier post on this thread that Overgaard is a better businessman than he is a photographer.  I agree with Stunsworth,  I don't buy it either.

Edited March 30, 2018 by Ouroboros

[ianman]

Now you know if you "need" alligator or not.

 

Ok.... for the elephants folks, what about the crocs?

 

Is your username an indication of what is inside your head?

[jonoslack]

Likewise. Note that we were called ignorant just yesterday (and with added disdain, with only Jono considered thoughtful), yet he then says he gained his insights over the last week. Please.

 

Jeff

 

Hi Jeff

I'm rather embarrassed about that, perhaps it was cowardly to write to him directly rather than sounding off here.

Anyway, Thorsten's new approach is most welcome

[Peter H]

Sometimes saying sorry isn’t enough, as Australian cricketers recently found out.

 

Am I looking for the total destruction of Thorsten? Of course not, I’m just questioning whether his Damascene conversion is sincere or not - something only Thorsten knows.

 

 

Why does it matter?

 

Are we now going to worry about why John Lewis for example, or any other well-known retailer, doesn't sell elephant-skin products? Is it because they sincerely don't want to or is it because they are commercially driven? The important thing here  is that they don't do it, and now Thorsten doesn't. That's what you hope for from pressure, not purely Damascene conversions.

 

Examining his thinking is pointless and in fact a bit distasteful unless we are going to hold every one of us up to equivalent moral interogation on everything we think is important. Shit, where would we start?

[M9reno]

Now you know if you "need" alligator or not.

 

Ok.... for the elephants folks, what about the crocs?

Actually, I have an open mind on the crocs.

 

A week ago I'd never made a donation to a wildlife charity.

 

Go on, persuade me.

[UliWer]

I am glad and relieved the bags are no longer. That is all that matters right now.

 

....

Unfortunately this is not true.

 

Exactly the same bag is still promoted on other websites - also „embellished“ by Leica eqipment.

 

I fear that we are only looking for nice stories.

[Paul J]

Having re-read the statement I am still feeling a little uneasy. This is not me being cynical or wanting the total destruction of someone.

 

The result is at least to be commended, but that commendation should go to the forum. Donating a couple thousand to save your own skin is the least that could be done.

 

Thorsten has forgotten to apologise for calling those speaking out about their concerns as clueless, ignorant, Disney watching, elephant men. That was wrong and it should be acknowledged. I find that somewhat revealing and leaves a bad taste.

 

It would seem, at this point, that those people, and the points being raise, weren't clueless at all.

 

I would have also preferred to have seen an apology and statement without a commercial offer. I will continue donating to charities directly.

Edited March 30, 2018 by Paul J

[MarkP]

Unfortunately this is not true.

Exactly the same bag is still promoted on other websites - also „embellished“ by Leica eqipment.

I fear that we are only looking for nice stories.

You mean the same Elephant hide bag, or just the other tacky ones?

I am most definitely NOT just looking for a nice story!

Edited March 30, 2018 by MarkP

[andybarton]

Indeed. Nor do I get the "backflip" of the forum consensus within this thread. At one point it seemed that Thorsten was being reputationally lynched (including having had his religion and wife dragged into the virtual flogging – quite wrongly IMO), now it seems he is ready to be declared as one of the great conservationists of our time. It seems that the forum has to swing widely from one position to the next rather than take a reasonable, if hard nosed, position on something. Maybe that's the nature of modern debate?

I don’t see that at all. I was just posting last night to thank him for listening to the criticism heaped upon him by this, and other forums.

 

That really was the point. I don’t see anyone hold him up as the next Bill Travers.

 

I hope that he is entirely sincere in his actions over the last 24 hours, but if he isn’t, that’s for him to deal with. As I said, I am happy to take this all at face value.

 

If this thread turns into a wider Thorsten-kicking, it will, of course, be moderated and closed.

[ianman]

This is now getting depressing.

 

We weren't happy about something and tried to get it changed. We worked together and got a positive outcome.

 

But now some of us are hurt because we were called ignorant and that seems to be becoming the important issue now.

 

The outcome is more important than my ego.

[Paul J]

We got the change that was needed and that is enough for me.

 

But I don't think calling for an apology is a matter of ego.

Edited March 30, 2018 by Paul J

[Martin B]

I suggest to close this thread - points have been made, opinions expressed, and there is no more value in going back and forward other than a continuing expression of one camp seeing the move as very positive and the other being more doubtful and critical. 

Edited March 30, 2018 by Martin B

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[wlaidlaw]

How many of us wear leather shoes, have leather straps on our cameras or bags and use other leather products like chamois leathers. The great majority of that comes from farmed animals. Is that any different from farming crocodiles and alligators? Many of us eat meat and again that comes mainly from farmed animals. We raise our own beef cattle, pigs and chickens and they are not kept as pets but semi-commericially, where most of the meat is for home consumption but we sell the excess to friends. I don't like the appearance of crocodile leather but I have no ethical objection to it, as long as the reptiles are kept in decent conditions. Sadly like many farm animals a fair proportion of them will not be. Still how do you know your shoes and other leather comes from cattle that have been properly kept and humanely slaughtered. 

 

Wilson