New: Leica Q3 with 60 MP BSI Sensor

[jaapv]

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There you are. Raw has no colour rendition That is created by the settings in Lightroom from some minor differences in the Bayer filter. 

[jplotkin]

Okay thanks for explaining. 

So concerns about Q3 “color rendition” vs Q2 probably have little to do with the sensor or filter itself, but rather with in-camera rendering to make canned JPGs. And this could be addressed by setting up a good workflow in Lightroom?
 

But that’s a pain for people (like me) who just want to use the premade JPG for most shots. 

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[SrMi]

7 hours ago, jaapv said:

There you are. Raw has no colour rendition That is created by the settings in Lightroom from some minor differences in the Bayer filter. 

The manufacturers sometimes modify the individual channels before writing out the raw data, there is a slight difference in CFAs, and the profiles are different. That gives a different initial color look.

With appropriate profiling, the outputs of two different cameras can be made to look similar, but often that is hard to achieve across various lighting and scenes. Most of the time, users work with what the camera is giving them without trying to emulate the look of a different camera.

[M11 for me]

However the technical background: I never liked the color rendering of Q2 when I start to to post processing in Lightroom Classic. I always much prefered the M11. I have to add here that some users here dislike the slant of the M11 sensor (or firmware or Adobe software) to magenta. I never had problems with that or it could easily be corrected. Contrary to that I had always "big" problems with the Q2. Now the Q3 behaves very similarly to the M11. To me it is a progress. Maybe its just my personal preference.

[jaapv]

9 hours ago, jplotkin said:

Okay thanks for explaining. 

So concerns about Q3 “color rendition” vs Q2 probably have little to do with the sensor or filter itself, but rather with in-camera rendering to make canned JPGs. And this could be addressed by setting up a good workflow in Lightroom?
 

But that’s a pain for people (like me) who just want to use the premade JPG for most shots. 

So you buy an über-expensive camera capable of fantastic image quality and throw away three quarters of the data which you paid for to take images on the level of an iPhone ?  Which admittedly is rather good nowadays, but still you could do so much better with your Q3  the in-camera jpg rendering is just a choice by an anonymous software engineer at Leica. LR is so user-friendly and fast nowadays that it won’t take more than a couple of minutes to get your image precisely as you want it to look. 

[jaapv]

2 hours ago, SrMi said:

The manufacturers sometimes modify the individual channels before writing out the raw data, there is a slight difference in CFAs, and the profiles are different. That gives a different initial color look.

With appropriate profiling, the outputs of two different cameras can be made to look similar, but often that is hard to achieve across various lighting and scenes. Most of the time, users work with what the camera is giving them without trying to emulate the look of a different camera.

Unless they are using two different cameras in tandem. 

[JeffVicus]

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Can anybody confirm the following;

I shoot 75% in B&W. Is it possible to either change the EVF to BW or use the BW preset to shoot JPEG (I assume the EVF will be BW) but still export the photo in RAW format? 
 

I use this a lot when using my Fuji but desperately want to upgrade to a Q3. It helps me enormously to have a BW viewfinder to compose the shot. That’s why I would never be able to use a traditional M for my workflow. 

[M11 for me]

You can indeed change the EVF to black & whight by setting the JPG settings to b&w. There is then no need at all to shoot JPG. Just set DNG and turn JPGs off. 

But you are aware that your DNG will always be in color.

Edited May 30, 2023 by M11 for me

[M11 for me]

vor 32 Minuten schrieb JeffVicus:

That’s why I would never be able to use a traditional M for my workflow

You can use the M11 with the Visoflex2. Then you have the same options as with Q3: Just set JPGs to b&w but turn JPG off and only the DNG on. So it works as well. I think that a Visoflex2 has to be bought together with the M11 anyway. It will be a different story when the M12 will have the tiltable sceen, which I believe it will have.

[jplotkin]

2 hours ago, jaapv said:

So you buy an über-expensive camera capable of fantastic image quality and throw away three quarters of the data which you paid for to take images on the level of an iPhone ?  Which admittedly is rather good nowadays, but still you could do so much better with your Q3  the in-camera jpg rendering is just a choice by an anonymous software engineer at Leica. LR is so user-friendly and fast nowadays that it won’t take more than a couple of minutes to get your image precisely as you want it to look. 

You have me convinced. I’m started to move to workflow that is all DNG to LR with a minute or two of hand adjustment, usually pulling recovery from shadows.
 

I’ve always done this with real nice keeper shots, but you’re right it’s easy enough with every shot I keep — and even the default LR adjustments seem much better than the Q2 JPGs. 

[jaapv]

56 minutes ago, M11 for me said:

You can indeed change the EVF to black & whight by setting the JPG settings to b&w. There is then no need at all to shoot JPG. Just set DNG and turn JPGs off. 

But you are aware that your DNG will always be in color.

Better to set to DNG+JPG Otherwise where would you be if your casual shot wins the Pulitzer Prize?  

[Ronaldraw]

The Q3 has also the crop mode function. What is the difference incompare with the Q2?

Is it still framing or change the view onto a 35 or 50 etc?

[ianforber]

1 hour ago, Ronaldraw said:

The Q3 has also the crop mode function. What is the difference incompare with the Q2?

Is it still framing or change the view onto a 35 or 50 etc?

No difference. It still shows the frame lines in the viewfinder rather than zooming to show what the cropped jpeg will look like. 

[JeffVicus]

2 hours ago, M11 for me said:

You can indeed change the EVF to black & whight by setting the JPG settings to b&w. There is then no need at all to shoot JPG. Just set DNG and turn JPGs off. 

But you are aware that your DNG will always be in color.

Yes, I’m aware that the raw file is in colour. The same as with my Fuji. It is only necessary for composing my shot and to assess the highlights and contrast of the output. 

This way I can see beforehand in the EVF if the composition works or not, before I edit the photo and have to come to the conclusion that my BW image isn’t as powerful as intended. 
 

thx for your reply

[dancook]

Someone asked about the animal AF in another thread

Here's a quick couple of test shots as an example.

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[M11 for me]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb Ronaldraw:

The Q3 has also the crop mode function. What is the difference incompare with the Q2?

Is it still framing or change the view onto a 35 or 50 etc?

There is an additional 90mm crop which is new with the Q3.

[Dr. G]

7 hours ago, Ronaldraw said:

The Q3 has also the crop mode function. What is the difference incompare with the Q2?

Is it still framing or change the view onto a 35 or 50 etc?

Unless there was a firmware update after I sold my Q2, the Q3 now has the thirds grid lines scaling to the frame of 35/50/75/95 if you have it enabled on your camera.  I find this helpful in composing images since the crop modes don't fill the screen.  

[AlanD]

Avid deep sky astrophotographer here, where so much of what you do is data collection rather than photography.  

Some good technical resources, here:

https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/observer-metameric-error-in-simulated-cameras/

https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/optimal-cfa-spectral-response/

——

In a nutshell, the Bayer Filter is the red, green, and blue filter in front of the individual pixels.  Unlike the RGB filters used in the Hubble Space Telescope which have sharp cut offs, Bayer filters have different distributions.

What is recorded is stuck.  It’s the same way you cannot convert a Leica monochrome to color.  The monochrome has a full stop of extra dynamic range because each pixel is collecting more light.

Imagine now that your red filter actually took in a lot of green and blue.  And your green took in a lot of red and blue. Etc.

You can now imagine a slider… pure monochrome means that 100% of the green and blue spill into the intended red channel.  A perfect super crisp red has “90%” purity (you don’t want 100%).

Great.  Now imagine going somewhere half way?  Instead of a full stop of noise benefit, you may actually get half a stop.  But now your color discrimination is poorer and you have to use software to try to exaggerate or enhance color differences.

DXO Mark tested the Q2 and M11.

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Leica/M11---Measurements#measuretabs-7
 

and

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Leica/Q2---Measurements#measuretabs-7
 

You can see that the individual channels are purer on the Q2.  There is much less bleed from the green.  It has more color discrimination.

On the other hand, the M11 has better metamerism score.  These are based of 18 specific GretagMacbeth scores.

After the sensor, you have the Leica or your own Lightroom/Capture One modifications.  

Conclusion:

1) Sensors can have fundamentally different color responses which cannot simply be fixed in post.

2) Differences may not matter to some.

3) Test yourself

https://www.xrite.com/hue-test

Edited May 30, 2023 by AlanD
Added conclusion

[MediaFotografie]

Am 26.5.2023 um 20:16 schrieb M11 for me:

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

As you can see that new grip has that rail in front but at the back its fully flat. Can you make out if this is suitable for your tripod?

coming back to the handgrip and ArcaSwiss: there are official Leica slides showed by well reputed stores saying the new handgrip has ArcaSwiss compatibility (line 2); strange...

 

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica Q

[jplotkin]

22 hours ago, AlanD said:

Avid deep sky astrophotographer here, where so much of what you do is data collection rather than photography.  

Some good technical resources, here:

https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/observer-metameric-error-in-simulated-cameras/

https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/optimal-cfa-spectral-response/

——

In a nutshell, the Bayer Filter is the red, green, and blue filter in front of the individual pixels.  Unlike the RGB filters used in the Hubble Space Telescope which have sharp cut offs, Bayer filters have different distributions.

What is recorded is stuck.  It’s the same way you cannot convert a Leica monochrome to color.  The monochrome has a full stop of extra dynamic range because each pixel is collecting more light.

Imagine now that your red filter actually took in a lot of green and blue.  And your green took in a lot of red and blue. Etc.

You can now imagine a slider… pure monochrome means that 100% of the green and blue spill into the intended red channel.  A perfect super crisp red has “90%” purity (you don’t want 100%).

Great.  Now imagine going somewhere half way?  Instead of a full stop of noise benefit, you may actually get half a stop.  But now your color discrimination is poorer and you have to use software to try to exaggerate or enhance color differences.

DXO Mark tested the Q2 and M11.

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Leica/M11---Measurements#measuretabs-7
 

and

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Leica/Q2---Measurements#measuretabs-7
 

You can see that the individual channels are purer on the Q2.  There is much less bleed from the green.  It has more color discrimination.

On the other hand, the M11 has better metamerism score.  These are based of 18 specific GretagMacbeth scores.

After the sensor, you have the Leica or your own Lightroom/Capture One modifications.  

Conclusion:

1) Sensors can have fundamentally different color responses which cannot simply be fixed in post.

2) Differences may not matter to some.

3) Test yourself

https://www.xrite.com/hue-test

Thanks for the extremely useful technical details, Alan. Good to know that, as a result, there may indeed be a true Leica look, not possible in post, due to Bayer construction. 
 

(my score was 0)