Brand new MP/M-A/M6 film scratches [Merged]

[Al Brown]

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2 minutes ago, Huss said:

So the professionals at Leica can compare.

The same professionals that let the film-scratching M6 be sold?

[Huss]

Just now, Al Brown said:

The same professionals that let the film-scratching M6 be sold?

I think that term loses something in translation. 😜

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[28framelines]

14 hours ago, Erato said:

No judgement, just try to narrow down the root cause

1️⃣ potentially speck/coating paint down under

2️⃣ potentially speck/coating paint down under the Electrical Contacts plane assembly

3️⃣ potentially speck/coating paint down under the Electrical Contacts plane assembly

4️⃣, 5️⃣, 6️⃣ possible speck alone with the path according to the scratches line from your original post

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My gut is 1,2 or 3 in this diagram, or potentially 3.5 (just to the right of 3, where you can see a gap and then another sharp edge). Perhaps instead of it being the base plate, it’s part of the inside of the body of the camera.

Another option to test would be:

1. Insert new film into camera as per instructions, noting no scratches on the exposed part of the film that you had to pull out of the canister to load it in the camera. TAKE PICTURES OF THIS, with measurements.

2. Close film door, place base plate on camera.

3. Wind the film ONCE.

4. Rewind film, open film back.

5. re-load the film in the camera just like you had in step one, with your measurements for where the film was located (hopefully this can be exact).

6. note where the scratching started. Did it start at 1, 4, 5, 6, 2, or 3, based on your photos and measurements?

[dickgillberg]

Film canister?

[Huss]

23 minutes ago, dickgillberg said:

Film canister?

four different rolls of film of different brands with the scratches in the exact same places?

[28framelines]

29 minutes ago, dickgillberg said:

Film canister?

Yes. Whatever you want to call it. Roll of film. 
 

6 minutes ago, Huss said:

four different rolls of film of different brands with the scratches in the exact same places?

Ya, so if that’s happening that’s why I think the steps I provided might help. If it’s happening consistently across multiple rolls from different brands, it certainly indicates the camera is the culprit. So then, if we want to isolate where the scratch is forming, realistically we should start seeing it scratch film the first time you advance a frame. So using photos and measurements, it should be pretty clear when you look at the before and after photos where the scratch is forming. Is it on the film plate? Before the film plate as it leaves the roll? As it gets onto take up spool?

I’m a software developer, and debugging is all about isolating the problem. If you follow these steps, you should be able to see where the problem is actually occurring.

[Huss]

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The thing is, as ridiculous as Leica shipping cameras that damage film, I/we use them because when you have one that works correctly, there is nothing like using them.

They are just a joy to handle and can give amazing results, and I look for reasons to grab one and go take pics.  Last week I used my Nikon F6, just because I hadn’t used it for a while, and while it is an incredible camera I just don’t feel that certain, as the French say, I don’t know what…. First off, it doesn’t scratch film and I googled it to see if there were any complaints about the F6 and film scratching.  None..  

But.. I have three 50mm AF lenses to go with it - 50 1.4d, 50 1.8g and the Sigma Art 50 1.4.  The Sigma Art is incredible, Leica quality optically.  But it is so freakin huge in ways it is more of a studio lens.  It is about three times the size of Lux 50 Asph.  So I left that home as I wanted a small/more compact outfit and picked the 50 1.4d.  This lens is smaller and faster than the 1.8g, plus has an aperture ring so more of that mechanical feel.

The pics were fine, quality was fine - workmanlike if that makes sense. They’ll do the job.  But when I compared to 50mm Leica, Zeiss and CV glass that I use on Ms, they lacked that sparkle, snap and ultimate sharpness.  Those lenses are also smaller.  Only the Sigma Art matched up but the size..  And that’s why I stick with the Leica M system, joy to use, incredible lenses from several sources, great size.  Leica just needs to get an actual QA process down instead of spending time signing little gift cards.

[Huss]

7 minutes ago, 28framelines said:

Yes. Whatever you want to call it. Roll of film. 
 

Ya, so if that’s happening that’s why I think the steps I provided might help. If it’s happening consistently across multiple rolls from different brands, it certainly indicates the camera is the culprit. So then, if we want to isolate where the scratch is forming, realistically we should start seeing it scratch film the first time you advance a frame. So using photos and measurements, it should be pretty clear when you look at the before and after photos where the scratch is forming. Is it on the film plate? Before the film plate as it leaves the roll? As it gets onto take up spool?

I’m a software developer, and debugging is all about isolating the problem. If you follow these steps, you should be able to see where the problem is actually occurring.

I get it, I debug stuff too IRL.  Problem is it doesn’t matter what I find, Leica has to replicate and repair.  It is brand new under warranty. If I isolate the issue/issues to specific areas I still cannot facilitate the repair as I do not have the replacement parts, am not qualified, and most probably would invalidate the warranty.

The camera is/was one week old.  The reality is Leica is not going to actually investigate anything, but just start replacing parts, first starting w the pressure plate and moving on from there.  Which is why I included the roll of film w the scratches, as a heads up and hint as to how they should confirm their fix.

[Huss]

6 hours ago, Matlock said:

I find it interesting that the OP reported this issue on November 13th  with the rather implausible point of the dealer replacing the camera 3 times (when it is almost impossible to get hold of a new MP). A second post, also on November 13th, stating that he/she would report back and we still have heard nothing. Could it be a troll? 🙂 

Initially I thought that until my 2022 M6 also scratched film.  Same parts unless you want to believe Leica marketing..  also some people have better things to do than spend all day on this web site, which may be why he/she hasn’t been back.  And I also get why someone wouldn’t want to come back if people accuse that person of making stuff up.

 

p.s reporting back can take time.  Leica is not exactly speedy w their fixes.

Edited December 18, 2022 by Huss

[LocalHero1953]

I realise the camera and film have already been sent to Leica, but did you try running your fingers across the pressure plate to see if you could feel anything? I'm curious how big a defect has to be before it causes a scratch. 

Has anyone else identified a defect that caused a scratch? Could it be felt? seen?

[Huss]

35 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I realise the camera and film have already been sent to Leica, but did you try running your fingers across the pressure plate to see if you could feel anything? I'm curious how big a defect has to be before it causes a scratch. 

Has anyone else identified a defect that caused a scratch? Could it be felt? seen?

I couldn't feel anything.  I wonder about the design of pressure plates though.  My new plastic Kodak Ektar H35 just has ribs, and the images are completely sharp even at 100%, and scratch free.  Most of my slrs have a solid plate.  My p&s cameras have a whole bunch of different designs - all scratch free.  In order below - Fuji Klasse W - w screws in the film frame area! - Nikon 600 AF with nibs on the pressure plate, Kodak H35.  None scratch film.  So what is it with Leica - the inventors of 35mm photography - that they can't figure this out?

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[Matlock]

59 minutes ago, Huss said:

Initially I thought that until my 2022 M6 also scratched film.  Same parts unless you want to believe Leica marketing..  also some people have better things to do than spend all day on this web site, which may be why he/she hasn’t been back.  And I also get why someone wouldn’t want to come back if people accuse that person of making stuff up.

 

p.s reporting back can take time.  Leica is not exactly speedy w their fixes.

You make a good point, however it is worrying that so many reports end with no answers forthcoming. This could lead to others failing to share their experiences which, after all, is what forums such as this are all about.

[Huss]

And here is a sample shot from that $50 new on Amazon Kodak H35, w the scratch free ribbed 'pressure plate' showing it does its job.  With a 100% crop to show its sharpness.

If we can get this on what is basically a plastic, semi-disposable camera, why can't Leica make their's consistently?

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[madNbad]

It’s starting to look like more of an assembly problem. Either the screws aren’t fully seated or the driver is raising a burr on the screw head. The assembler could also be catching the edge of the plate during the process. Since it’s also happened with some MPs, it’s not just the new M6.

[Huss]

5 minutes ago, Matlock said:

You make a good point, however it is worrying that so many reports end with no answers forthcoming. This could lead to others failing to share their experiences which, after all, is what forums such as this are all about.

I get that, but many people have no interest on being an active member of a site, but reach out looking for answers.  Maybe he'll be back, but it's 'only' been a month. When I had to send my digital M in for a warranty repair, it was four months before I got it back.

I am guilty of perhaps doubting his story when he said his local shop had a bunch of MPs in stock.  But then I remembered that when I was considering getting an MP before the M6, Leica Manchester also had a bunch of MPs in stock.  So that can happen.

[dickgillberg]

15 hours ago, Huss said:

four different rolls of film of different brands with the scratches in the exact same places?

Ok I see. Just a thought. But if it such a deep scratch you might be feeling what’s scratching with your fingers?

[wattsy]

Which side of the film is the scratch – emulsion or the other? I can't tell from the OP's photo. Knowing that would certainly help troubleshoot the problem and can rule out or rule in the pressure plate being the culprit.

[Erato]

17 hours ago, Huss said:

The thing is, as ridiculous as Leica shipping cameras that damage film, I/we use them because when you have one that works correctly, there is nothing like using them.

They are just a joy to handle and can give amazing results, and I look for reasons to grab one and go take pics.  Last week I used my Nikon F6, just because I hadn’t used it for a while, and while it is an incredible camera I just don’t feel that certain, as the French say, I don’t know what…. First off, it doesn’t scratch film and I googled it to see if there were any complaints about the F6 and film scratching.  None..  

But.. I have three 50mm AF lenses to go with it - 50 1.4d, 50 1.8g and the Sigma Art 50 1.4.  The Sigma Art is incredible, Leica quality optically.  But it is so freakin huge in ways it is more of a studio lens.  It is about three times the size of Lux 50 Asph.  So I left that home as I wanted a small/more compact outfit and picked the 50 1.4d.  This lens is smaller and faster than the 1.8g, plus has an aperture ring so more of that mechanical feel.

The pics were fine, quality was fine - workmanlike if that makes sense. They’ll do the job.  But when I compared to 50mm Leica, Zeiss and CV glass that I use on Ms, they lacked that sparkle, snap and ultimate sharpness.  Those lenses are also smaller.  Only the Sigma Art matched up but the size..  And that’s why I stick with the Leica M system, joy to use, incredible lenses from several sources, great size.  Leica just needs to get an actual QA process down instead of spending time signing little gift cards.

The attached screenshot indicates the Film Pressure Plate and Real Time Vacuum, RTV Suction Slit of Contax RTS III.

This could be the closest distant between the film and pressure plate in the history. It never scratches the film according to my experiences. 

And the ST, Aria, IIIf, F3, F4 or FM2, Rolleiflex, and Hasselblad are also the same.

It makes me wonder...

 

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[Fotoklaus]

vor 23 Stunden schrieb Huss:

That is why I included the entire test roll of film when the camera was shipped back.  So the professionals at Leica can compare.

you give Leica far too much credit for changing something during development.  They shipped the first batch of 35 FLE II lenses with broken apertures.  They shipped the original 50 APO w/o the internal anti flare coating.  Etc

Such things would have never left the factory back then.

Too much money for marketing, not enough left for QC. But it pays off, obviously.

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[Huss]

5 hours ago, wattsy said:

Which side of the film is the scratch – emulsion or the other? I can't tell from the OP's photo. Knowing that would certainly help troubleshoot the problem and can rule out or rule in the pressure plate being the culprit.

it’s on the side that comes into contact w the pressure plate.